Sudden Enlightenment?

Sudden Enlightenment?

Postby seeker242 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:15 pm

So there is the teaching of "Sudden Enlightenment". It is written that Huineng, upon hearing someone recite the Diamond Sutra, attained enlightenment from hearing that. Or was it that he attained an "awakening" into the dharma, from hearing that? Is there a difference between "awakening" and "enlightenment"? If enlightenment is the end of suffering and the complete release of clinging AKA: Anuttara-Samyak-Sambodhi, does that mean, in that one instant, that Huineng was completely released from all clinging and all suffering in that very instant of hearing that? Does "sudden enlightenment" mean that all that habitual clinging can be completely released, in an instant? With no chance to fall back into those habitual patterns? What exactly does "sudden enlightenment" mean? Does it really mean the instantaneous and permanent release of all clinging, to all 5 Skandhas, in just one brief moment?

:anjali:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment?

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:22 pm

Sudden enlightenment is directly seeing the nature of mind. That can result in permanent liberation in rare cases, but most of the times it is insight into truth, but then one has to keep working with that to stabilise the realisation.

BTW, Huineng's true enlightenment occurred when he had a secret meeting with Hongren.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment?

Postby White Lotus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:23 pm

the first link in the chain of causality/dependent origination is ''ignorance''. when the nature of things is seen then ignorance is no longer possible and so the chain of causality begins to disintegrate. clinging and craving are no longer relevant if ignorance has ceased; they come further down the chain, before ''birth''.

if it is seen that Mind is emptiness then it is known that there is no one to be born, since Mind is all things (just about). when there is no mind there has been a cessation of the within, or own nature. it is no longer possible to look within and therefore the dharma eye closes.

enlightenement in Chan seems to be found in the saying of Huineng... ''see your nature and become a buddha''. the Nature of Mind or Emptiness. Before the oneness of Mind can be seen there needs to be a renunciation of all things, all names and all forms, through a vow.

when emptiness is seen, it is just this ordinary ''mind'' seeing daily things in an ordinary way. if you seek emptiness in the ordinary you will find it. the only way i know of that enables seeing emptiness is to see the nature within yourself. Some have called this emptiness, others mind, it is such as it is, suchness. just so.

perhaps the most accurate designation of nature is that it is just so. all things are just so. suchness.

so, if you wish to see Mind, emptiness or suchness then see your nature within. this ordinary nature is hard to see if you have an ego mind still clinging.

its so hard to talk about these things, they are very elusive. if someone keeps banging on about... see emptiness, or seeing Mind it is because the experience defies elaboration, and tends to be spoken about in simple terms only. simple though completely inacessible like a thousand foot iron wall. impenetrable.

hope this is helpful. if you wish to seen nature you must be creative and use all skillful means at your disposal. kind deeds, kind heart, kind mind, various forms of meditation, philosophical insight, creative exploration of different methods and means. its not impossible. the most precious commodity is time, to have time to search.

you can undergo all initiations you need through prayers to the buddhas and learned masters, you may even learn to speak directly to them after some practice.

sudden? is it, i dont know. it can happen in one lifetime with practice of skillful means, but how many lives have prepared one for this 'sudden' enlightenment. i dont know, perhaps very very many.

best wishes, Tom.

i am not a learned scholar, but am trying to speak of experience. i dont know whether this will be helpful or not. i hope it will. bless you.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment?

Postby Wesley1982 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:23 am

It could happen but it would be like a "shock" to the brain. May take a few years to properly stabilize.
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment?

Postby Quiet Heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:48 am

seeker242 wrote:So there is the teaching of "Sudden Enlightenment". It is written that Huineng, upon hearing someone recite the Diamond Sutra, attained enlightenment from hearing that. Or was it that he attained an "awakening" into the dharma, from hearing that? Is there a difference between "awakening" and "enlightenment"? If enlightenment is the end of suffering and the complete release of clinging AKA: Anuttara-Samyak-Sambodhi, does that mean, in that one instant, that Huineng was completely released from all clinging and all suffering in that very instant of hearing that? Does "sudden enlightenment" mean that all that habitual clinging can be completely released, in an instant? With no chance to fall back into those habitual patterns? What exactly does "sudden enlightenment" mean? Does it really mean the instantaneous and permanent release of all clinging, to all 5 Skandhas, in just one brief moment?

:anjali:

------------------------------------
:smile:
On the topic of your original post....here is a short quote from Bodhisattva Hsuan Hua posted on another topic by will.
It's something to think about.

Sudden Enlightenment

The Dharma-door of Chan meditation points directly to the human mind. It teaches us to see our nature and to become a Buddha. It is also called "the sudden teaching." The teaching of sudden enlightenment is brought to success by cultivating the gradual teaching. There’s a saying that goes: "One may suddenly be enlightened to the principles, but then one puts the principles into practice gradually. "Now in our daily deportment, as we walk, sit, stand, and lie down, we are cultivating gradually. Then in the future, there will be a day when we truly understand and we suddenly get enlightened. That’s what we mean by sudden. The sudden, in fact, is not apart from the gradual; and the gradual also aids the sudden.


The main points gere are (in my humble
opinion)
1. That sudden enlightenment is the result of a gradual perhaps lifetime study of and a grounding in the basics as a first step.
2. That though a realization may be sudden any effects of that realization may take time to develop and come into effect.
3. That the terms gradual and sudden are not exclusive; but a part of the same process....that they are therefore like the heads and tails sides of a coin...they can't be seperated.
:smile:

This probaly applies not only to Chan meditation but to all "Sudden enlightenment teachings".
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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