the great vegetarian debate

[Malcolm]

Quite a few, if not most of the arguments used by vegetarians to illustrate why not eating meat is a wise choice are valid. It may be better for your health, better for the environment, and will separate one slightly from the slaughterhouse industry.

Depends on what kind of meat. Industrial agriculture produces inferior food, whether plant or animal, organic or conventional, since it is based on petro-chemicals is not nourishing. Eat local, eat in season, eat a wide variety of things. Then you will be healthy.

The bulk of food ideologies are hoaxes. And yes, it is inevitable that for some beings to live, other beings must die.

M

[catmoon]

This goes against the nature of man.

I'm sorry, but any such concept such as "the nature of man" (aside from sexist phrasing) is complete nonsense and is not supported by any Buddhist teaching.

Nice ploy. Oh perhaps Virgo is sexist then... uh no sorry. Very, very, very far from it. Ask all the women I know>

Ironically (@virgo), it is the very argument that "it is the nature of man to use force" which is the argument from which fascism as a political ideology, which you object to, claimed its legitimacy. Look up Giovanni Gentile for more on this.

I agree fully. That is why this nation, which tried to establish a rule of law based on equality, and based on the opinions of the governed rather than solely on the opinion of the governers, has a military. You know, like a large part of the reason why we don't speak German today and why all people who don't fit Hitlers descriptions of the perfect race still exist.

The so-called "nature" of beings in the human realm (man and woman) is not defined by the means, but by the ends:
Humans are plagued by a constant state of dissatisfaction (dukkha) which can manifest as anything from the desire for a hamburger to the need to convert others to a vegan diet, or the frustration one feels because people who call themselves Buddhist eat meat and this seems hypocritical,

Ignorance, attachment, and aversion are all separate, at least in the Abhidhamma that I learned. However, chittas rooted in attachment or aversion always arise with a root of ignorance as well.

Quite a few, if not most of the arguments used by vegetarians to illustrate why not eating meat is a wise choice are valid. It may be better for your health, better for the environment, and will separate one slightly from the slaughterhouse industry.

I believe meat is good for your health. I don't care about the slaughterhouse industry or distancing myself from it. To me that is all bs.

But the underlying cause for choosing either to eat meat or not eat meat is exactly the same:
One mistakenly clings onto the idea that choosing one or the other will lead to happiness and will free oneself (and perhaps others) from suffering. maybe it has to do with feeling well fed, or of having a clear conscience. Whatever.
There are a billion different reasons for the things people choose to do.
But the motivation, or the motivation behind one's motivation is always the same./

honestly, my friend, I eat meat because it is what my body is used to. Sometimes it needs it. That's not evil.

Obviously, if millions of consumers stop buying beef (and you may remember when Oprah Winfrey's influence caused this to happen) or some other type of meat, it will have an impact on the market.

Dude, come back to reality. The only way that will happen is if the price of meat sky rockets.

Kevin

[muni]

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/nomeat.htm?page_id=52

[PadmaVonSamba]

Most of the time I do not eat any meat.
It is only during those few seconds when I am chewing and swallowing do I sometimes eat meat.
Even then, I take very small bites.
.
.
.

[LastLegend]

Damn this horse will never die.

[David N. Snyder]

Most of the time I do not eat any meat.
It is only during those few seconds when I am chewing and swallowing do I sometimes eat meat.
Even then, I take very small bites.

That's a pretty good one; staying in the present, not much eating of meat going on most of the time.

[David N. Snyder]

Damn this horse will never die.

pun intended?

[AdmiralJim]

I can understand why people like vegetarianism but there are plenty of medical conditions which being an omnivore is beneficial. Also what about countries where production of crops is incredibly difficult or impossible. Lot of beings are also killed by the crop growing process

[seeker242]

That is perhaps another issue, but there are many animal rights activists who don't like pet ownership. Pet ownership could be phased out too or alternatively there are vegetarian dog foods that can be made with all the nutrition and protein a dog needs. Cats on the other hand are pretty strict carnivores. As the food science advances I imagine they may come up with a vegetarian alternative for cats too.

Nonsense. This is just a fantasy.

It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

[AdmiralJim]

It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

That is all very well and good, what evidence is there that long term artificially created food is healthy for these animals considering they are natural carnivores? Plus people forget that these animals - pets- were domesticated for good reasons. It is far more sensible to control vermin using cats as a natural predator than all the crappy ways humans use. Dogs were bred for farm work and pest control also.

[Malcolm]

There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

This is the very definition of animal cruelty -- like feeding corn to cows.

[kirtu]

It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

A question about vegetarian/vegan diet at Scientific American

Cats get certain key nutrients from meat—including taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A and vitamin B12—that can’t be sufficiently obtained from plant-based foods. Without a steady supply of these nutrients, cats can suffer from liver and heart problems, not to mention skin irritation and hearing loss.

Veterinarian Marla McGeorge, a cat specialist at Portland, Oregon’s Best Friends Veterinary Medical Center, argues that the problem with forcing your cat to be vegetarian or vegan is that such diets fail to provide the amino acids needed for proper feline health and are too high in carbohydrates that felines have not evolved to be able to process. As to those powder-based supplements intended to bridge the nutritional gap, McGeorge says that such formulations may not be as easily absorbed by cats’ bodies as the real thing.

Evolution Diet, makers of completely vegetarian foods for cats, dogs and ferrets, says that its meatless offerings, on the market for 15 years, are healthy and nutritious, and, if anything, have extended the lives of many a feline and canine, even reversed chronic health problems....And Harbingers of a New Age, which makes “Vegecat” kibble and supplements that provide cats with nutrients otherwise only found in meat, says that its products allow owners to “prepare food in your own kitchen, choosing recipes that fit your lifestyle."

Kirt

[Ogyen]

Depends on what kind of meat. Industrial agriculture produces inferior food, whether plant or animal, organic or conventional, since it is based on petro-chemicals is not nourishing. Eat local, eat in season, eat a wide variety of things. Then you will be healthy.

The bulk of food ideologies are hoaxes. And yes, it is inevitable that for some beings to live, other beings must die.

M

To echo this... Industrial food production produces inferior product, it's about cost-control and profit margins. The health of the consumer (animal or human) is pretty low on the chain of corporate concerns/directives. Selling it is more important... Even if you're not a vegetarian and you're Buddhist, you don't NEED meat every day, everything in moderation seems to work best to re-establish healthy living. I only lost a near 130 lbs (put on in my adulthood through said mass-industrialized sold food product), have kept it off successfully because of moving outside of that whole industrial food chain, not buying products of unknown origin. I am healthier than ever. I'm fortunate that where I live now I can trace all product locally to farmers and ranchers, eat in season, and have a wide variety of local product outside of imported USA products for very cheap. I completely agree with Malcolm's statement above, I am a living proof of it. The closer to the earth, the healthier the food, the farther from that process, the more junk is used to cut, mix, and fill. Not to mention the inhumanity towards all animals involved in this system, covered extensively in this thread.

I think the point, if eating meat as a Buddhist/dharma practitioner, is to connect with the sentient beings through consumption. No need for excess, but you can make everything practice, from what I've learned thus far.

[seeker242]

There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

This is the very definition of animal cruelty -- like feeding corn to cows.

I have a friend who has a cat with feline leukemia. Upon the recommendation of her vet, she started feeding it vegan cat food and it's health significantly improved. This is the definition of animal cruelty? Where are you getting this definition from? Killing cows so one can have a tasty hamburger, when you could be eating corn instead, now that is animal cruelty!

[Indrajala]

Vegan catfood is really unnatural. Let's be honest.

Pet food is actually part of the industrial food process. I don't think they put prime quality meats into processed foods for dogs and cats. I imagine it is largely just waste that can't be turned into hot dogs that end up in those tins of pet food.

[seeker242]

It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

That is all very well and good, what evidence is there that long term artificially created food is healthy for these animals considering they are natural carnivores? Plus people forget that these animals - pets- were domesticated for good reasons. It is far more sensible to control vermin using cats as a natural predator than all the crappy ways humans use. Dogs were bred for farm work and pest control also.

The issue is still under debate for cats since cats are "obligate carnivores". The matter has been nearly settled for dogs as dogs are natural omnivores. A border collie, Bramble, a complete vegetarian dog, is in the top five oldest dogs in recorded history of dog life span living to over 27 years. Many people in animal nutrition consider it fine to feed dogs a vegetarian diet. With cats though, that is a different story.

[seeker242]

Vegan catfood is really unnatural. Let's be honest.

Pet food is actually part of the industrial food process. I don't think they put prime quality meats into processed foods for dogs and cats. I imagine it is largely just waste that can't be turned into hot dogs that end up in those tins of pet food.

I would want to see more actual studies showing it's ok if I were to feed my cats vegan. I know some people who have vegan cats and they are healthy cats but that is really just anecdotal evidence. But yes, what they put in normal pet food in the supermarket is pure crap.

[Nemo]

A steer is on average is 1483 pounds and costs 108$ at auction locally.

That yields over 600 pounds of prime cuts. If only these were used to price the cow it would be 18¢ a pound. The remaining 800 pounds is used for other things including cat food. If you bought grade A cows exclusively for pet food it would only cost 7¢ per pound. At that price vegetarianism is unlikely to catch on. In Canada there are no feed subsidies.

[Indrajala]

But yes, what they put in normal pet food in the supermarket is pure crap.

The other day I went to a Carrefour here in Taipei, which has a lot of imported foods. Aisle after aisle of packaged, processed and plastic foods that no human should consume. You look at the ingredients and more often than not sugar is one of the first three. "Spaghetti sauce" is as much sugar as it is tomato it seems. The pickles have peculiar sounding chemical additives. The pet food is edible waste, but then the human food is likewise of a similar type, albeit with better packaging and more presentable appearances.

Some years ago I became concerned with the amount of sugar in processed foods. Try finding plain biscuits without sugar. The bread often has loads of sugar in it (especially here in Asia where bread is candy with glucose being the second ingredient most of the time).

If you're vegetarian or vegan avoiding animal biproducts is almost impossible given than many ingredients in processed foods are derived from dead livestock in some form or another.

[Malcolm]

If you're vegetarian or vegan avoiding animal biproducts is almost impossible given than many ingredients in processed foods are derived from dead livestock in some form or another.

No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.