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The deathless -- "our" most original " state/home"? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The deathless -- "our" most original " state/home"?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Nyana
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:53 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:16 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby Nyana » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:19 pm


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IanAnd
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby IanAnd » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:11 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

alan
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:21 am

I'm unsatisfied with these responses. Pretty much had enough with the endless quotes and references.
At first I was impressed when people made a big deal about all the Pali words they knew. But now it is boring. These posts are just a turgid slough.
Say what you mean, please, and do it clearly, in plain English. 50 words or less. No showing off.

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ground
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby ground » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:25 am

Caused and conditioned by the practice of the 8fold path the afflictive obscurations are extinguished.


Kind regards

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tiltbillings
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:38 am


alan
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby alan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:51 am

Thanissaro's translation is what we are all working with. That should be easy enough to understand.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:54 am


rowyourboat
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:55 am

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Ok, so does that sound like the ending of craving or what?


"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1

Does this sound more like 'pitch-black emptiness' or what?

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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tiltbillings
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:57 am


rowyourboat
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:00 am

A little bit of pali:

Udaya- means arising, used also to mean sunrise, awakening etc

Vyaya- means passing away

Nir-udaya - means non-arising.

So the question is how is nirodha (nir-udaya) differ from vyaya or passing away?

It means that nirodha is different from vyaya in that there is a break in the constant arising and passing away.

That is, there is non-arising.

That is emptiness.



with metta

Matheesha
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Nyana
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:15 am


rowyourboat
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:16 pm

17. Knowledge of Reviewing   
The duration of that threefold knowledge of maturity, path, and fruition is, however, not long. It is very short, and lasts for just an instant, like the duration of a single thought of noticing. Subsequently there arises "knowledge of reviewing." Through that knowledge of reviewing the meditator discerns that the insight leading to emergence came along with the very rapid function of noticing, and that immediately after the last phase of noticing, the path consciousness entered into the cessation (of formations). This is "knowledge reviewing the path."

He also discerns that the consciousness abided in that same state of cessation during the intervening period between the path and reviewing. This is "knowledge reviewing fruition."

-The Progress of Insight, Mahasi Sayadaw

As can be seen from the above, Knowledge of reviewing (of what just happened, breaking of fetters) happens after the moments cessation- non-arising of formations. This is a highly significant moment, because nirodha sacca (the truth of cessation-non-arising, is realised here. The practitioner realises that the culmination of all the vipassana nanas, the suppression of avijja) leads to breakdown of the process of re-becoming, it is the end of unsatisfactory fabrications arising. The 'escape' (nissaranaya) from the suffering of fabrications (one of the three types of dukkha) is experienced, directly, for him/herself. The practitioner did this by following the Noble Eightfold Path- hence now there is confirmation that there can be-it is possible- to escape ALL suffering/dukkha. If this were not the case the Buddha-dhamma would be another religion which promises escape after death. But it is not like that. You will know, in this lifetime, that following the noble eightfold path leads to the complete cessation of suffering. It is now known beyond doubt, beyond dogmatic promises of salvation. This leads to the breaking of the fetter of Doubt. It leads to the understanding that Samatha vipassana is not mere ritual, said to lead to emancipation, unverifiable for oneself. But rather that it is the path to the deathless state, beyond doubt, beyond conjecture, beyond debate.

Furthermore it can be seen, when anicca, dukkha, anatta is seen at it's deepest, there would be no craving for becoming. It can be understood that ignorance (absence of the insight knowledges) lead to becoming ie- arising and passing away, uninterrupted. The deep insight (vijja) leads to an interruption, pointing the way- that release is possible 'where there is an opportunity to do so' (as sometimes mentioned in the sutta).

I understand that I am weaving many threads together to cone up with the full picture. As I cannot verify this any further, I leave it to you to decide whether this makes sense or not.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Nyana
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?

Postby Nyana » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:16 pm


starter
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Re: The deathless -- "our" most original " state/home"?

Postby starter » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:13 am

Hello Matheesha,

I usually don't join such debates, but because of the importance of the topic and my desire to reward your help and help others, I'd like to ask a couple of questions about your following comments:

"...Knowledge of reviewing (of what just happened, breaking of fetters) happens after the moments cessation- non-arising of formations. This is a highly significant moment, because nirodha sacca (the truth of cessation-non-arising, is realised here. The practitioner realises that the culmination of all the vipassana nanas, the suppression of avijja) leads to breakdown of the process of re-becoming, it is the end of unsatisfactory fabrications arising. The 'escape' (nissaranaya) from the suffering of fabrications (one of the three types of dukkha) is experienced, directly, for him/herself. The practitioner did this by following the Noble Eightfold Path- hence now there is confirmation that there can be-it is possible- to escape ALL suffering/dukkha. If this were not the case the Buddha-dhamma would be another religion which promises escape after death. But it is not like that. You will know, in this lifetime, that following the noble eightfold path leads to the complete cessation of suffering. It is now known beyond doubt, beyond dogmatic promises of salvation. This leads to the breaking of the fetter of Doubt. It leads to the understanding that Samatha vipassana is not mere ritual, said to lead to emancipation, unverifiable for oneself. But rather that it is the path to the deathless state, beyond doubt, beyond conjecture, beyond debate.

As I understand, in this system of training the breaking of the 3rd fetter appears to be solely based upon the experience of "Pitch-black emptiness" , or more precisely, is based upon the faith that such an experience is the breakdown of the process of re-becoming /the ending of unsatisfactory fabrications' arising / the complete cessation of suffering / the deathless state. If this faith is shaken, then the doubt about the path will arise for sure, right? But is such an experience really a taste of the deathless? Can someone whose third fetter is not yet broken enter the sphere of "cessation of perception and feeling"? I thought only arahants can do so.

Furthermore, to my knowledge non-buddhists can experience such "Pitch-black emptiness" as well; the practitioners who has gained the faith as you described above could easily lose the faith, once they learn such an experience is not really unique to the Buddhists. Then how can the 3rd fetter (the doubt about the Buddha's enlightenment) be truly broken for ever like this?

Would it be a better way to break the 3rd fetter by penetrating the Buddha's unique Not-self/No-selfhood approach to liberation and by really understanding/seeing the Buddha's path to the deathless?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Take care,

Starter


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