the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby muni » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:56 pm

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:39 pm

Most of the time I do not eat any meat.
It is only during those few seconds when I am chewing and swallowing do I sometimes eat meat.
Even then, I take very small bites.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:00 am

Damn this horse will never die.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:19 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Most of the time I do not eat any meat.
It is only during those few seconds when I am chewing and swallowing do I sometimes eat meat.
Even then, I take very small bites.


That's a pretty good one; staying in the present, not much eating of meat going on most of the time.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:20 pm

LastLegend wrote:Damn this horse will never die.


:D pun intended?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby AdmiralJim » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:30 am

I can understand why people like vegetarianism but there are plenty of medical conditions which being an omnivore is beneficial. Also what about countries where production of crops is incredibly difficult or impossible. Lot of beings are also killed by the crop growing process
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:That is perhaps another issue, but there are many animal rights activists who don't like pet ownership. Pet ownership could be phased out too or alternatively there are vegetarian dog foods that can be made with all the nutrition and protein a dog needs. Cats on the other hand are pretty strict carnivores. As the food science advances I imagine they may come up with a vegetarian alternative for cats too.


Nonsense. This is just a fantasy.


It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby AdmiralJim » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:16 pm

It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

That is all very well and good, what evidence is there that long term artificially created food is healthy for these animals considering they are natural carnivores? Plus people forget that these animals - pets- were domesticated for good reasons. It is far more sensible to control vermin using cats as a natural predator than all the crappy ways humans use. Dogs were bred for farm work and pest control also.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:40 pm

seeker242 wrote: There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.


This is the very definition of animal cruelty -- like feeding corn to cows.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:18 am

seeker242 wrote:It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.


A question about vegetarian/vegan diet at Scientific American

Cats get certain key nutrients from meat—including taurine, arachidonic acid, vitamin A and vitamin B12—that can’t be sufficiently obtained from plant-based foods. Without a steady supply of these nutrients, cats can suffer from liver and heart problems, not to mention skin irritation and hearing loss.


Veterinarian Marla McGeorge, a cat specialist at Portland, Oregon’s Best Friends Veterinary Medical Center, argues that the problem with forcing your cat to be vegetarian or vegan is that such diets fail to provide the amino acids needed for proper feline health and are too high in carbohydrates that felines have not evolved to be able to process. As to those powder-based supplements intended to bridge the nutritional gap, McGeorge says that such formulations may not be as easily absorbed by cats’ bodies as the real thing.


Evolution Diet, makers of completely vegetarian foods for cats, dogs and ferrets, says that its meatless offerings, on the market for 15 years, are healthy and nutritious, and, if anything, have extended the lives of many a feline and canine, even reversed chronic health problems....And Harbingers of a New Age, which makes “Vegecat” kibble and supplements that provide cats with nutrients otherwise only found in meat, says that its products allow owners to “prepare food in your own kitchen, choosing recipes that fit your lifestyle."



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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ogyen » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:46 am

Malcolm wrote:Depends on what kind of meat. Industrial agriculture produces inferior food, whether plant or animal, organic or conventional, since it is based on petro-chemicals is not nourishing. Eat local, eat in season, eat a wide variety of things. Then you will be healthy.

The bulk of food ideologies are hoaxes. And yes, it is inevitable that for some beings to live, other beings must die.

M


To echo this... Industrial food production produces inferior product, it's about cost-control and profit margins. The health of the consumer (animal or human) is pretty low on the chain of corporate concerns/directives. Selling it is more important... Even if you're not a vegetarian and you're Buddhist, you don't NEED meat every day, everything in moderation seems to work best to re-establish healthy living. I only lost a near 130 lbs (put on in my adulthood through said mass-industrialized sold food product), have kept it off successfully because of moving outside of that whole industrial food chain, not buying products of unknown origin. I am healthier than ever. I'm fortunate that where I live now I can trace all product locally to farmers and ranchers, eat in season, and have a wide variety of local product outside of imported USA products for very cheap. I completely agree with Malcolm's statement above, I am a living proof of it. The closer to the earth, the healthier the food, the farther from that process, the more junk is used to cut, mix, and fill. Not to mention the inhumanity towards all animals involved in this system, covered extensively in this thread.

I think the point, if eating meat as a Buddhist/dharma practitioner, is to connect with the sentient beings through consumption. No need for excess, but you can make everything practice, from what I've learned thus far.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
seeker242 wrote: There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.


This is the very definition of animal cruelty -- like feeding corn to cows.


I have a friend who has a cat with feline leukemia. Upon the recommendation of her vet, she started feeding it vegan cat food and it's health significantly improved. This is the definition of animal cruelty? Where are you getting this definition from? Killing cows so one can have a tasty hamburger, when you could be eating corn instead, now that is animal cruelty!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:50 pm

Vegan catfood is really unnatural. Let's be honest.

Pet food is actually part of the industrial food process. I don't think they put prime quality meats into processed foods for dogs and cats. I imagine it is largely just waste that can't be turned into hot dogs that end up in those tins of pet food.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:56 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:
It's really not. All of that is already true. Many animal rights activists are completely against the breeding and sale of pets. There are several brands of vegetarian dog foods out there and there are several brands of vegan cat food already out there.

That is all very well and good, what evidence is there that long term artificially created food is healthy for these animals considering they are natural carnivores? Plus people forget that these animals - pets- were domesticated for good reasons. It is far more sensible to control vermin using cats as a natural predator than all the crappy ways humans use. Dogs were bred for farm work and pest control also.


The issue is still under debate for cats since cats are "obligate carnivores". The matter has been nearly settled for dogs as dogs are natural omnivores. A border collie, Bramble, a complete vegetarian dog, is in the top five oldest dogs in recorded history of dog life span living to over 27 years. Many people in animal nutrition consider it fine to feed dogs a vegetarian diet. With cats though, that is a different story.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:59 pm

Huseng wrote:Vegan catfood is really unnatural. Let's be honest.

Pet food is actually part of the industrial food process. I don't think they put prime quality meats into processed foods for dogs and cats. I imagine it is largely just waste that can't be turned into hot dogs that end up in those tins of pet food.


I would want to see more actual studies showing it's ok if I were to feed my cats vegan. I know some people who have vegan cats and they are healthy cats but that is really just anecdotal evidence. But yes, what they put in normal pet food in the supermarket is pure crap.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nemo » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:15 pm

A steer is on average is 1483 pounds and costs 108$ at auction locally.

That yields over 600 pounds of prime cuts. If only these were used to price the cow it would be 18¢ a pound. The remaining 800 pounds is used for other things including cat food. If you bought grade A cows exclusively for pet food it would only cost 7¢ per pound. At that price vegetarianism is unlikely to catch on. In Canada there are no feed subsidies.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Indrajala » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:25 pm

seeker242 wrote:But yes, what they put in normal pet food in the supermarket is pure crap.


The other day I went to a Carrefour here in Taipei, which has a lot of imported foods. Aisle after aisle of packaged, processed and plastic foods that no human should consume. You look at the ingredients and more often than not sugar is one of the first three. "Spaghetti sauce" is as much sugar as it is tomato it seems. The pickles have peculiar sounding chemical additives. The pet food is edible waste, but then the human food is likewise of a similar type, albeit with better packaging and more presentable appearances.

Some years ago I became concerned with the amount of sugar in processed foods. Try finding plain biscuits without sugar. The bread often has loads of sugar in it (especially here in Asia where bread is candy with glucose being the second ingredient most of the time).

If you're vegetarian or vegan avoiding animal biproducts is almost impossible given than many ingredients in processed foods are derived from dead livestock in some form or another.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:33 pm

Huseng wrote:
If you're vegetarian or vegan avoiding animal biproducts is almost impossible given than many ingredients in processed foods are derived from dead livestock in some form or another.


No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.
Animal by-products not animal products.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:29 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No only this but the amount of animal products used to grow vegetables, rice, etc. is in the millions of tons.
Animal by-products not animal products.
:namaste:


Blood, bones and feathers are not animal products?
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