Questioning Alayavijnana

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LastLegend
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:58 pm

Another way we say about memories is it's there but not there at the same. Does it exist or not exist? It is not there when there is no trigger or association, it arises when there is. So is it there?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Astus
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:03 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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LastLegend
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:21 pm

No ideas. I am through with this. Peace. :namaste:

P.S. Alaya is not physical so does it have a limited storage capacity?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Astus
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:28 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Grigoris
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:37 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:42 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

deepbluehum
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:06 pm


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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:07 pm

BTW, seed is just a metaphor. There's no actual seed. It is the operation of three faculties of the mind carrying on habitual actions.

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Astus
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:12 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Astus
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Grigoris
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:16 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

deepbluehum
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:24 pm


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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:33 pm


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Astus
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Astus » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:34 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



deepbluehum
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:41 pm

I think the thrust of what Astus is pondering is really 12-fold cycle of DO. What we are calling "mental phenomena" actually fit, under Buddha's model, into the category of unconscious responses, reflexes, conditioned responses, something to that effect. The gist is that we are not actually conscious now. These mental phenomena are not conscious or in a consciousness. And the term vijnana is not well translated as "consciousness." "Perception" is a better word in the sense of how one perceives. For example, one person sees a church as a holy place and another sees it as a tourist place. The church is thus perceived differently. It is not a conscious choice, but is simply conditioned in a deterministic way, when this arises so does that. Further, in the 12-fold scheme "conscious" is what Buddha is, when the unconscious process comes to a stop.

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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Jnana » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:14 am


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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:18 pm

I tend to differ with Jnana's quoted material for the following reasons. The source is myself and my experience with oral transmission in the Vajrayana lineages.

The first Five Consciousnesses (Vijnana) correspond to each of the Five Sense Media (eye, nose, ear, tongue and body). The Sixth Consciousness (Manovijnana), postulating external “objects”, corresponds to the Five Sense Bases or “sense objects.” The Seventh Consciousness (Manas) is the afflicted consciousness that postulates a truly existent subject or “I.” Alayavijnana is the eighth of the Eight Consciousnesses which is the nature of mind, Emptiness, Prajnaparamita, Mahamudra, etc. The sense-Vijnanas, the Manovijnana and the Manas are mutually conditioned by the Three Poisons (ignorances, attachment and aversion), and, together, these constitute the basis (alaya with a little “a”) for samsara. The prime mover is the Manovijnana-Manas dynamic. Thus, the Alaya is not afflicted.

The Manovijnana discriminates a truly existent world of objects. Simultaneously, the Manas discriminates a truly existent subject or “I.” The interplay of these two factors is to become attached to or averse to sense objects and the subject. This dynamic is what accounts for our sense of continuity, memory, and hence our habits. Therefore, the Three Poisons, the Manojvijnana, and the Manas constitute a karmic seed. It is a seed, because it’s life-span is momentary, but the alaya stores it because it is emptiness and the dependent qualities cling to one another until there is the cause for their dissolution.

Take an everyday example of afflicted consciousness: when we see a fine antique vase and we think “I love this vase.” With the help of light, the eye contacts an object, like the fine antique vase. Here we have the sense media contacting the sense base due to light. At this point, there is no consciousness only bare perception. Then, my mind thinks, “vase.” This is the emergence of the Manovijnana positing an object based on the cognitive obscuration of ignorance. Simultaneously, my mind thinks “I…,” because a feeling has arisen of love, hate or neutrality. Here we have the emergence of the Manas positing a subject based on the cognitive obscuration of ignorance that grasps the feeling as real and “mine,” and the afflictive obscuration that loves, hates or is neutral toward the feeling. Thus, in this instance, my mind thinks “…love…” These together constitute the karmic seed.

In the context of Mahamudra practice, the mutually conditioning Manovijnana-Manas positing truly existent objects and a subject is the most important factor. The Manojvijnana is like the monkey that is always looking through one of the windows of a house. The Manovijnana is always looking through one of the five sense doors. As it does this, it gives rise to either a good, bad or neutral feeling regarding sense objects. This feeling is the Manas that we designate as “my” or “I,” and we experience this feeling with the thought that we love, hate or are neutral. When we examine whether the incident feeling has any qualities, like color, shape, etc., we come to realize that the feeling is like space. Examining in this way is like throwing a rock at a glass house. The entire structure of subjects and objects collapses when we do this, leaving nothing but space. This is because the Alaya has always been free from obscurations.

What is an obscuration? It means confusion, avidya, vikalpa. Not knowing the Alaya is the obscuration. Knowing it is "truth," "light" and "enlightenment." The Alaya is unborn, meaning has not come into being. When we see the nature of what is unborn, not created and not new, we see the truth of our nature. Then, there are no obscurations. Seeing the unborn Alaya exposes all obscurations in an instant. The real view is no view. The real seeing is not seeing. All attachments are grasping at something to be real or not real when neither is ever true. This is the meaning of unborn. Thus, the Alaya is neither perceived by the ignorant, apprehended, nor obscured. All the apprehension and obscuration is occurring from the seventh consciousness and below.

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Malcolm
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:26 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:40 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:01 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa


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