Questioning Alayavijnana

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Astus
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Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

Alayavijnana is used to explain how karma is carried on from moment to moment, life to life, and also it is a basis for the continuation of a being. Here are some problems I have:

If alayavijnana is a part/mode of consciousness, why are we not aware of it?
If we can't be aware of it, what makes it part of the consciousness? / If there can be a part of consciousness one is not aware of, what makes it consciousness?
If only buddhas are aware of it, since they have it already purified, even they can't see the defiled seeds, and so it's only an assumption.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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Astus wrote: If alayavijnana is a part/mode of consciousness, why are we not aware of it?
If we can't be aware of it, what makes it part of the consciousness? / If there can be a part of consciousness one is not aware of, what makes it consciousness?
There are subconscious and unconscious aspects of consciousness. I'm no fan of psychiatry, but at the same time I think the fact that science recognizes such things is significant.

My way of conceptualizing these categories are more in terms of archetypes and tendencies. It is indubitable that people are born with such things as talents, dispositions, and so on. I don't for an instant think that science has anything like an explanation for that in terms of genetics and evolutionary theory. It is much more like a 'conscious continuum' than like a physical transaction. And I think consciousness is a collective phenomenon, in very much the way the yogacarins suggest that it is. So, overall, I think there is something in what they say.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Grigoris »

Astus wrote:Alayavijnana is used to explain how karma is carried on from moment to moment, life to life, and also it is a basis for the continuation of a being. Here are some problems I have:

If alayavijnana is a part/mode of consciousness, why are we not aware of it?
If we can't be aware of it, what makes it part of the consciousness? / If there can be a part of consciousness one is not aware of, what makes it consciousness?
If only buddhas are aware of it, since they have it already purified, even they can't see the defiled seeds, and so it's only an assumption.
AFAI one can be aware of the alayavijnana if they are in the "state" of Mahamudra. It can also be accessed by the mano vijnana (discriminating mind) via the manas (intuitive mind).
:namaste:
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

Greg,

Do you have any reference for that? I mean, I haven't yet read anywhere that when abiding in the nature of mind, you see all the seeds that are present in the alayavijnana.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Huifeng »

Astus wrote:Alayavijnana is used to explain how karma is carried on from moment to moment, life to life, and also it is a basis for the continuation of a being. Here are some problems I have:

If alayavijnana is a part/mode of consciousness, why are we not aware of it?
If we can't be aware of it, what makes it part of the consciousness? / If there can be a part of consciousness one is not aware of, what makes it consciousness?
If only buddhas are aware of it, since they have it already purified, even they can't see the defiled seeds, and so it's only an assumption.
Hmmm, your first paragraph is from the position of how / why the alaya idea was first being developed.
But, then your second paragraph(s) are based on a position of the later description after some amount of development.

So, this is how the problem comes up. In particular, the ramifications and indeed requirements once alaya is established as a vijnana, as opposed to the collection of bijas.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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Astus wrote:Greg,

Do you have any reference for that? I mean, I haven't yet read anywhere that when abiding in the nature of mind, you see all the seeds that are present in the alayavijnana.
Aaaahhh... here is a reference for you: Dispelling misconceptions about the True Nature, Lesson 62 from Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning Karmapa Wangchung Dorje
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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Huifeng wrote:In particular, the ramifications and indeed requirements once alaya is established as a vijnana, as opposed to the collection of bijas.
As a background info, I've been reading the Cheng Weishi Lun when these questions came up.

Even if we talk about seeds only, they are mental phenomena, and the questions remain. How can a mental phenomenon exist without the mind being conscious of it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

gregkavarnos wrote:Aaaahhh... here is a reference for you: Dispelling misconceptions about the True Nature, Lesson 62 from Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning
That part talks only about how the buddha-mind is full of good qualities. Doesn't even mention karmic seeds or alayavijnana. Are you sure that's your reference?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Grigoris »

The aggregates, the elements and the sense factors of beings have all from the beginning the true nature of awakened male and female buddhas and deities. As is taught in all sutras and tantras they are themselves buddha mind.

If, on the contrary, you assume that there is another superior buddha mind to be attained outside of your mind and believe that it is impossible that the extremely pure buddha mind exists within the mind within th mindstream of impure beings, that is nothing but glossing things over and misinterpreting the vajra words of the secret mantra, you have distorted the meaning of the abiding nature and this is improper...
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by deepbluehum »

Astus wrote:Greg,

Do you have any reference for that? I mean, I haven't yet read anywhere that when abiding in the nature of mind, you see all the seeds that are present in the alayavijnana.
This would be the oral introductions to Mahamudra.
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by deepbluehum »

Astus wrote:
Huifeng wrote:In particular, the ramifications and indeed requirements once alaya is established as a vijnana, as opposed to the collection of bijas.
As a background info, I've been reading the Cheng Weishi Lun when these questions came up.

Even if we talk about seeds only, they are mental phenomena, and the questions remain. How can a mental phenomenon exist without the mind being conscious of it?
What you are dealing with here is the problem of avidya. How can anger arise without your being conscious of it? Once it's full blown, you are conscious of it. But it comes on to you unawares. As soon as the circumstances align, it jumps out. This is the meaning of seed. Eye organ contacts object, pleasant or painful, generates eye-consciousness, aroused by memory and then anger can arise. This is the seed. In a sense Alaya-vijnana is memory stored deep in the "unconscious."

So the "seeds" are dependent originations. Buddhas don't see them because of that. So turning your attention to the process, seeing nothing, they disappear, slowly never to reappear. That's how it goes.
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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Greg, yes, that's it. Where does it say that with realising Mahamudra you can observe karmic seeds?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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deepbluehum wrote:What you are dealing with here is the problem of avidya. How can anger arise without your being conscious of it? Once it's full blown, you are conscious of it. But it comes on to you unawares. As soon as the circumstances align, it jumps out. This is the meaning of seed. Eye organ contacts object, pleasant or painful, generates eye-consciousness, aroused by memory and then anger can arise. This is the seed. In a sense Alaya-vijnana is memory stored deep in the "unconscious."

So the "seeds" are dependent originations. Buddhas don't see them because of that. So turning your attention to the process, seeing nothing, they disappear, slowly never to reappear. That's how it goes.
You just say that there is alayavijnana, but you don't answer how can there be mental phenomena without being aware of them. It is a problem because if there is no need of consciousness for a mental phenomena, then there are thoughts without being thought, and even a stone could have mental phenomena.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Grigoris »

I would recommend you follow Ven. Huifengs advice first and then maybe consider my rantings. Thing is now you have opened at least five different fronts concerning the original question. Where do you want to start and where exactly do you want to go? You have to deal with the issues raised by Ven Huifeng first before being able to move forward.

Just a note though:
Even if we talk about seeds only, they are mental phenomena, and the questions remain. How can a mental phenomenon exist without the mind being conscious of it?
This statement is opening a whole Pandoras box of issues. It probably deserves a thread of its own!!! I would say that they are latencies or habits rather than current mental events. A habit does not need to manifest continously, or in the present, in order to be able to manifest in the future. It is still there though, isn't it? But we do run into problems with Madhyamakan logic: how can something that is non-existent become existent? If it is existent then it is permanent. If it is not existent then it cannot become existent (a seed is not a tree and a tree is not a seed). If it is both then causes and outcomes are the same. If it is neither, then outcomes do not have causes. Like I said, you've let the dogs out with this question.

I'm off to practice, so see you soon...
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

Greg,

I can turn it into a quite simple problem:

If we are not aware of seeds, how can they be mental phenomena? If we are aware of seeds, how could they be latent?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

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Astus wrote:Alayavijnana is used to explain how karma is carried on from moment to moment, life to life, and also it is a basis for the continuation of a being. Here are some problems I have:

If alayavijnana is a part/mode of consciousness, why are we not aware of it?
If we can't be aware of it, what makes it part of the consciousness? / If there can be a part of consciousness one is not aware of, what makes it consciousness?
If only buddhas are aware of it, since they have it already purified, even they can't see the defiled seeds, and so it's only an assumption.
When we listen to someone speaking, it is the unconscious mind that is taking that sound and transforming it into recognizable speech. Doing that transformation is not a conscious activity. When we learn a new language, there is conscious effort for a while but in time the transformation becomes automatic with not conscious deliberation involved. The vast majority of information processing happens at the unconscious level with only some information percolating up to the conscious mind. One can legitimately ask, where is that transformation know-how stored? And why aren't we consciously aware of both the contents and functioning of our mundane unconscious mind? I'm not trying to be flippant, but that is just how we are constructed--it's a basic duality.

Now enter the notion of the alayavijnana. I haven't spent much time researching/reading about the alayavijana, but not too long ago I was reading Khenchen Thrangu's commentary on The Ocean of Definitive Meaning and came across this note that gave me pause,
There are two kinds of objects: objects that appear clearly and vividly to the six consciousnesses and objects that reside in the ground consciousness as latencies. When we perceive things in a room, there are also may other things outside the room that we cannot perceive. Where are they? They are in the ground consciousness, not as objects but as latencies. When we leave the room, then the room and the things inside it remain in our ground consciousness, since they are no longer appearing to any of the six consciousnesses.

The ground consciousness is vast in terms of the objects contained within it. The whole world is contained in the ground consciousness in the form of latencies. We can go anywhere in this world, and that place will appear, will become a vivid appearance, because everywhere we can go is already present as a latency in the ground consciousness. [KT] p.182
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

Anjali,

We suppose an unconscious mind, but since we are never aware of it, it is only a supposition, an explanation without experiential basis. We could as well think that latencies abide on the other side of the universe, or whatever we like. And I'm not bringing in any Madhyamaka arguments, like from the Madhyamakavatara.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Grigoris »

Astus wrote:Greg, yes, that's it. Where does it say that with realising Mahamudra you can observe karmic seeds?
What is the source of the aggregates, the elements and the sense factors of beings?

You are missing the forest for the trees my dear Astus. Looking to find specific words instead of seeing the meaning.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Grigoris »

Astus wrote:Greg,

I can turn it into a quite simple problem:

If we are not aware of seeds, how can they be mental phenomena? If we are aware of seeds, how could they be latent?
There are numerous mental phenomena occuring that I am not aware of. Take anger for example. You can be angry and so caught up in the feeling that you not aware of your anger. I can be aware of my capacity for anger yet not be currenlty expressing or feeling anger.
:namaste:
Last edited by Grigoris on Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Questioning Alayavijnana

Post by Astus »

gregkavarnos wrote:What is the source of the aggregates, the elements and the sense factors of beings?

You are missing the forest for the trees my dear Astus. Looking to find specific words instead of seeing the meaning.
OK. It says, "The aggregates, the elements and the sense factors of beings have all from the beginning the true nature of awakened male and female buddhas and deities." That's almost like saying that the aggregates, etc. are selfless, empty. It confirms the original purity of all phenomena. And so I ask how that relates to karmic seeds.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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