It's because of how and where I grew up (the time and place).deepbluehum wrote: Whoa that's young. I wasn't that young. I was probably 19. I only meant to say, I respect my elders. Respect to Malcolm!
Malcolm is the man.
Kevin
It's because of how and where I grew up (the time and place).deepbluehum wrote: Whoa that's young. I wasn't that young. I was probably 19. I only meant to say, I respect my elders. Respect to Malcolm!
Of course. As for me I only quoted a openly edited Dzogchen book for all and my note on some non-secret remark from Rinpoche. The definition on first and second Marigpa with the "return" according to the definition from the book for me is an anology to your previous answer on the visionsMalcolm wrote:Whatever you like to believe.deepbluehum wrote: If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya.
I am not going to discuss this further on an open forum.
M
muni wrote:Limitations don't give up trying to find correct glasses to put on the nose in order to see what cannot be seen so.
Maybe this:
"Mind is the basis of samsara and nirvana.
Once you realize (its nature), rest in the ease of non-meditation.
Other than within yourself, to look for it elsewhere is completely deluded.
There is nothing of “It is this,” “It is not this.”
Everything abides within the natural state".
Okay, not this...
Then may blessings enter.
THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.
Mariusz wrote:"Okay". The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by SOGYAL RINPOCHE explains what will happen to ordinary people (who did not practise the real Dzogchen, the Dzogchen after the recognition because of Direct Introduction from the master):THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.
After this process no guarantee your rebirth will be as human, more people are going to be animals. So, Good Luck!
Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.oldbob wrote:Mariusz wrote:"Okay". The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by SOGYAL RINPOCHE explains what will happen to ordinary people (who did not practise the real Dzogchen, the Dzogchen after the recognition because of Direct Introduction from the master):THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.
After this process no guarantee your rebirth will be as human, more people are going to be animals. So, Good Luck!
Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.Andrew108 wrote: Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.
If people are not already buddhists, they easy protest like it. However, according to the realized masters of Dzogchen, ordinary life leads to suffering, mostly to lower realms. It is sad true, the preliminary true, the outer Ngondro. So, we have to "limit" now ourselves in order to find the master and recognize, after it practise the real DzogchenPero wrote:Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.Andrew108 wrote: Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.Mariusz wrote:If people are not already buddhists, they easy protest like it. However, according to the realized masters of Dzogchen, ordinary life leads to suffering, mostly to lower realms. It is sad true, the preliminary true, the outer Ngondro. So, we have to "limit" now ourselves in order to find the master and recognize, after it practise the real DzogchenPero wrote:Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.Andrew108 wrote: Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.
Phowa is not a specfically Dzogchen teaching.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.
Well I didn't know that but I think you missed the right thread with this one.Malcolm wrote:Phowa is not a specfically Dzogchen teaching.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.
Thanks!The four or six bardo scheme is specifically Dzogchen and is not found in the gsar ma tantras, the main source for the teaching on bardos is nyi zla kha sbyor rgyud.
Hi Pero. The point that Dzogchen teachings are free from limitations means that there does not exist a 'specifically' buddhist cause that results in Dzogchen. There is no dying to be done.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.
No need for protest because of the reincarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the term reincarnation according to 12 links. There is Lamrim and buddhist tantras with the process of death, the Bardo state, the rebirth, for example Guhyasamaja Tantra. Guhyasamaja Tantra is older than Dzogchen tantras according to historians as I know.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source.
What? There was nothing in that quote about a "specifically Buddhist" cause.Andrew108 wrote:Hi Pero. The point that Dzogchen teachings are free from limitations means that there does not exist a 'specifically' buddhist cause that results in Dzogchen.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.
Oh really? Slit your throat then.There is no dying to be done.
Moreover, according to the dzogchen nyinthig book I quoted, when the Mind arises because of the third Marigpa, the rebirth will be soon because of the same process of buddhist 12 Links of Dependent Origination!Mariusz wrote:No need for protest because of the reincarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the term reincarnation according to 12 links. There is Lamrim and buddhist tantras with the process of death, the Bardo state, the rebirth, for example Guhyasamaja Tantra. Guhyasamaja Tantra is older than Dzogchen tantras according to historians as I know.Pero wrote: I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source.
Realization is realization wherever it comes from and provisional teachings are just that - meant to be provisional. It's better not to mix the two.Pero wrote: Oh really? Slit your throat then.
edit: I'm not serious of course. Don't think you're that big of an idiot but wanted to make that clear just in case.
Hm those pesky Dzogchen Tantras, denigrating Dzogchen. How dare they!It's better to not mistake Dzogchen with anything that is provisional. If we do mix Dzogchen with the provisional then we denigrate it.
I can't find anything provisional in the the Kunjed Gyalpo.Pero wrote:Hm those pesky Dzogchen Tantras, denigrating Dzogchen. How dare they!It's better to not mistake Dzogchen with anything that is provisional. If we do mix Dzogchen with the provisional then we denigrate it.