A question about ireful compassion

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

A question about ireful compassion

Postby Yasam » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:53 pm

Hello everybody.
Recently I have read a text by Lama Ole Nidal, where he talks about Dharmapalas, Defenders. He mentioned several times the ireful compassion which Defenders manifest. But what is this ireful compassion? Sounds like an axymoron, a contradiction. How can it be? Can anybody explain it, give an example? As far as I know the Buddha teaches that the rage and anger are dukkha. How can a Defender of Dharma combine such unskillful qualities like rage or anger with compassion? Well, if a Defender shows such dukkha qualities... isn't it like playing with demons?
:reading:
User avatar
Yasam
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:29 pm

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Maybe anger can be likened to a weapon that is harmful in the wrong hands?
User avatar
dharmagoat
 
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby Yasam » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:09 pm

dharmagoat wrote:Maybe anger can be likened to a weapon that is harmful in the wrong hands?

Well, I guess, not, the "weapon" is in right hands - the Defender's hands. But my question is how can compassion be wrathful?
User avatar
Yasam
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:29 pm

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby steveb1 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:47 am

how can compassion be wrathful?
===

How can good deities be wrathful? I'm thinking of Wrathful Deities who protect the Dharma in Tibetan Buddhism...

Perhaps wrathful compassion is a form of "tough love"?

One apocryphal saying of Jesus is, "Unless you stop your animal sacrifices, my wrath will not cease from you". This is connected with Jesus' driving animals and people from the Jerusalem temple.

Sometimes just plain talk - truth-telling - is harsh, and most religions recommend it, even if they don't practice it.

Perhaps it's not really the compassion that is ireful, but rather its expression, e.g., compassion for a child abuser does not always and/or necessarily require gentle admonitions to "please just stop".
steveb1
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby catmoon » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:18 am

I think Ole has gone off the deep end here. The dictionaries define 'ire' as something beyond anger that falls just short of belligerent madness. It doesn't sound at all Buddhist to me, and is practically the antithesis of compassion. Ire is not something that wishes to benefit the recipient. Ire simply wants the victim destroyed.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:30 pm

Wrathful compassion, like when a mother shouts at a child to stop it doing something dangerous.

Let's not forget that Ole is not an anglophone so...
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 7963
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby Quiet Heart » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:50 am

:smile:
ireful compassion


I remember being a young child just after I was walking about and my mother teaching me a lesson about the stove being "hot".
We had an old-fashioned iron wood burning stove in the kitchen. Mom used to keep things like doughnuts and sweetrolls in and on it to keep them warm.
At that age I could just barely reach to the top of that stove to get at any doughnuts or sweetrolls kept there, but i tried.
Mom would yell at me, "NO!...it's hot".....but I never listened. Often I burned my hand on that hot stove reaching for something I couldn't see very well.
Then one day, after I burned my hand again, my mom taught me a lesson.
Taking my hand firmly she said, "NO!...stove is HOT", and touced my hand briefly on the top of the hot stove, then pulled it back.
It was very painful....but while I still was reacting to the pain my mom grabbed by head and looking into my eyes said clearly, "SEE stove is HOT!".
Now that lesson, which I can still remember over 60 years later, was mom's use of "ireful compassion".
Ireful because it used a form of "anger" (for want of a better term)....and compasionate because it used the minimum amount of pain required to teach the neccesary point.
THat's what "ireful compassion" is I think.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
User avatar
Quiet Heart
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 10:57 am
Location: Bangkok Thailand

Re: A question about ireful compassion

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:20 am

catmoon wrote:I think Ole has gone off the deep end here. The dictionaries define 'ire' as something beyond anger that falls just short of belligerent madness. It doesn't sound at all Buddhist to me, and is practically the antithesis of compassion. Ire is not something that wishes to benefit the recipient. Ire simply wants the victim destroyed.


Actually, wrath and ire are synonyms. So imo "ireful compassion" is no less buddhist than "wrathful compassion." The point is, that wrathful (or ireful) enlightened activity can appear to be cruel or vindictive, but actually it is extremely efficient purification. That's why wrathful manifestations mainly appear in the inner Tantras, where it is assumed the practitioner has integrated a good deal of compassion.


one example definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wrath

wrath   [rath, rahth or, especially Brit., rawth] Show IPA
noun
1.
strong, stern, or fierce anger; deeply resentful indignation; ire.
2.
vengeance or punishment as the consequence of anger.
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am


Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JKhedrup and 13 guests

>