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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:20 am 
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Andrew108 wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Topic: FREE FROM LIMITATIONS

How you arrive at the state of exhaustion of your mind is up to you. As far as I can tell, ChNN, in every single retreat, extends the bridge for you to cross to the other shore. If you can cross into the state of the guru, you are Samantabhadra. It doesn't mean you are Samantabhadra minus four visions. He has never ever said that. There are three levels of intensity with which you can practice, semde, longde and upadesha. People get pretty jazzed up about Thogal, because there is solid visual evidence of what the guru is talking about plus all the intrigue around the secrecy. And yes they are "wisdom appearances" with the caveat that they are not yet completely pure, because the bodhisattva Samantabhadra, before becoming Buddha saw the five lights, but was not yet buddha. He was not buddha until, based on past knowledge, knew those appearances to be self-appearance. So seeing the appearances of Thogal are not the visions of a Buddha. You are not a buddha until the visions exhaust. And technically, as Malcolm has said many times, the five lights are not actually from pure winds. You purify them in the process of the system. What Thogal is showing you is guru yoga in direct perception. Rinpoche teaches Ati guru yoga. It is upadesha level.

This is a very nice fantasy.


Dear Andrew 108, all and All,

Great posts all. :good: :twothumbsup:

My 2 cents. (Means I am not in instant presence if I have something to say.)

Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations ---.

From the viewpoint of instant presence, this cannot be commented on in any way.

In instant presence, whatever occurs in my continuum is exactly the same grist for the no-action, single stone (without any characteristics whatsoever), of the instant presence mill. Whatever occurs, or does not occur, is just fine, and is left in its own condition without comment or correction.

A good or bad thought, or an ideational expression of any of the 9 yana philosophical positions, or ANY philosophical position, or any thought about anything, or feeling of any sort, is self liberated on occurring.

In instant presence there is no limit as to what can occur, and be self liberated on occurrence.

In this precise way, Dzogchen teaching is free from any limitation whatsoever. Within this single point, all the conceptual structures of the triple time are resolved.

This is the single point that includes all others.




If I experience the visions of ordinary mind, or Thogal, or Dark retreat, from the viewpoint of instant presence, there is no differentiation among / between these visions.

--- and everything that occurs in my continuum is "seen" (without vision), and "understood" (without thought) as a "very nice fantasy," without any name, or naming, that this is so.

This can only be understood by experience, and cannot be understood by words. Which points to why we take direct introduction from a Dzogchen Master, and then utilize the Dzogchen practices to develop confidence in, and continue in, this unconditioned condition.

Hope this helps.

Now my words are exhausted, but is this the second or third vision? - I get confused. Maybe I am just tired. :smile:

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long in good health and with success in all things.


Last edited by oldbob on Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:22 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.


I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.


Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.


The visions are not Sambhogakaya IIRC.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:33 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.


I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.
I check my notes from Gangteng Rinpoche. It is not only from the book. 8 modes of Lhundrub have all possibilities including pure Nirvana, and impure Samsara. These two options are but "now we again fall from enlightenment to samsara".... So why not again to enlightenment? :smile:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:28 am 
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Malcom, can you precise? First you had written on the first and second marigpa of samantabhadra (including the visions):

Malcolm wrote:

Samantabhadra both possessed igorance (innate ignorance and ignorance that resembles the cause) and once he recognized his own state, he never returned to a state of ignorance.


but it contradicts what you wrote later:

Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
What I wrote in the post above: the 3 visions of thogal are the second Marigpa which can have Samantabhadra and yet return (forth vision). All of them are not third marigpa where is the Mind. Please read Longchen Rabjam, Tulku Thondup: "The Practice of Dzogchen", Snow Lion Publications, 2002, ISBN 1559391790.


I've studied the text. It doesn't seem to be well translated or the concepts don't jibe somehow or perhaps I don't follow your writing well. This presentation is a bit confusing and strange. Longchenpa was a great teacher, but I'm not that jazzed about his writing. The three visions of thogal are still marigpa because you don't recognize them to be your own appearance yet. There is still some dualism vision. The visions themselves are pure, they are neither samsara nor nirvana, but you are not Samantabhadra and neither are they. Longchepa's language often, to my mind, ventures into the realm of idealism.


Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.


?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:45 am 
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oldbob wrote:
Now my words are exhausted, but is this the second or third vision? - I get confused. Maybe I am just tired. :smile:
I'm not sure if you "confuse" 2 and 3 vision of thogal with 2 i 3 unelightenment (Marigpa)? They are very different terms.

Supplementing my notes from the book where the basic terms of Nyinthig Dzogchen:

“Having broken” the “Youthful Vase Body” (Wyl. Gzhon-Nu Bum-sku) because of the Nature (Wyl. Rang bZhin) of the Pristine Awareness (Wyl. Rig-pa) arise the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) with the Power (Wyl. Rtsal) to recognize them. The Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) ceased in themselves into primordial purity (Wyl. Ka-dak) of Dharmakaya (Priomordial Buddha, Wyl. Kun-tu bzang-po) or if they didn't cease (the first Marigpa), they are spontaneously accomplished (Wyl. Lhun-Grub) for Nirvana with the final return also to Dharmakaya (Priomordial Buddha, Wyl. Kun-tu bzang-po) or not spontaneously accomplished (the second Marigpa). If not, the Mind arises (the third Marigpa) and the rebirth in impure Samsara.

This is also the process of the bardo of Dharmata you will have after your death. You already know bardo of Dharmata is the 4 visions also.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:07 am 
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Words about words about words.

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:35 am 
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Simon E. wrote:
Words about words about words.

:namaste:
it is my habit since my friendship with madhyamaka :rolling:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:39 am 
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Clearly.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:00 am 
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Limitations don't give up trying to find correct glasses to put on the nose in order to see what cannot be seen so.

Maybe this:

"Mind is the basis of samsara and nirvana.
Once you realize (its nature), rest in the ease of non-meditation.
Other than within yourself, to look for it elsewhere is completely deluded.
There is nothing of “It is this,” “It is not this.”
Everything abides within the natural state".

Okay, not this...

Then may blessings enter. :anjali:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:50 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

The visions are not Sambhogakaya IIRC.


The visions are completley pure, meaning they are not fabricated by the mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Mariusz wrote:

Thogal visions are not marigpa at all -- otherwise, they are not thogal visions.


?[/quote]

Marigpa is "subject-side", visions are "object side". When the display of the basis is recognized as one's own state, no more dualism, no more ignorance.

M

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:48 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

The visions are not Sambhogakaya IIRC.


The visions are completley pure, meaning they are not fabricated by the mind.


Right, one can still become attached to them or conceptualize them, they they will be the cause for further samsara. The potential to conceptualize them is not finally eradicated until fourth vision when they finally exhaust. If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya. One's mind has not fully recognized rigpa yet. So the process of thogal gradually eradicates the habits of clinging.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:52 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

Right, one can still become attached to them or conceptualize them, they they will be the cause for further samsara. The potential to conceptualize them is not finally eradicated until fourth vision when they finally exhaust. If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya. One's mind has not fully recognized rigpa yet. So the process of thogal gradually eradicates the habits of clinging.

Don't reduce Dzogchen to being a gradual path.

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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:53 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya.


Whatever you like to believe.

I am not going to discuss this further on an open forum.

M

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:06 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Right, one can still become attached to them or conceptualize them, they they will be the cause for further samsara. The potential to conceptualize them is not finally eradicated until fourth vision when they finally exhaust. If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya. One's mind has not fully recognized rigpa yet. So the process of thogal gradually eradicates the habits of clinging.

Don't reduce Dzogchen to being a gradual path.


It's Loppon Tenzin Namdak who uses those words. It's not a gradual path in the sense that other paths are gradual. The word applies in the way I've used it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya.


Whatever you like to believe.

I am not going to discuss this further on an open forum.

M


Well they are "pure visions" in the sense they are not fabricated by mind. They arise naturally from our own condition. But we don't necessarily recognize them to be our own condition all the time, otherwise one's visions would exhaust immediately, as in the case of the extraordinary practitioner who doesn't see all four visions and goes straight to exhaustion based on previous life dharma experience. My point in all of this discussion has been Guru Yoga, which is what can release us from limitations, even the limitations of any kind of sitting practice, depending on us and the guru. ChNN's guru yoga transmission is extraordinary form of guru yoga. ChNN is an extraordinary teacher. This is a very unique opportunity.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:17 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
ChNN's guru yoga transmission is extraordinary form of guru yoga. ChNN is an extraordinary teacher. This is a very unique opportunity.


Preaching to the choir -- ChNN has been my root Guru since 1992.

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How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
ChNN's guru yoga transmission is extraordinary form of guru yoga. ChNN is an extraordinary teacher. This is a very unique opportunity.


Preaching to the choir -- ChNN has been my root Guru since 1992.


In 1992 I lost my virginity, maybe it was 1993.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:32 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
ChNN's guru yoga transmission is extraordinary form of guru yoga. ChNN is an extraordinary teacher. This is a very unique opportunity.


Preaching to the choir -- ChNN has been my root Guru since 1992.


In 1992 I lost my virginity, maybe it was 1993.

I lost mine in 94. In 92 I was twelve.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Preaching to the choir -- ChNN has been my root Guru since 1992.


In 1992 I lost my virginity, maybe it was 1993.

I lost mine in 94. In 92 I was twelve.

Kevin


Whoa that's young. I wasn't that young. I was probably 19. I only meant to say, I respect my elders. Respect to Malcolm!


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