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Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"? - Dhamma Wheel

Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

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Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby starter » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:59 pm

Dear Friends,

Thanks a lot for your previous help. I'd like to know how to translate the following, especially the 2nd sentence:

“Yathāssa passato rūpam, sevato cāpi vedanam;
Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato.
Evam apacinato dukkham, santike nibbāna vuccati.”
-- from Mālukyaputta Sutta

The correct understanding of this stanza is very important for insight meditation. Your kind contribution would be highly appreciated.

All the best for your Dhamma practice. With metta,

Starter

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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:21 pm


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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby starter » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:12 pm

Hi Mike,

Thanks for being so helpful. BB's translation makes more sense to me:

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering or defilements] is exhausted, not built up.
for one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbana is said to be close by."

But in which way one fares mindfully [according to this sutta? Would you mind providing some more info [on the sutta]? I read Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's explanation (non-conceptualization) but would like to know other translations/explanations. Metta,

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Last edited by starter on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:32 pm

Hi Starter,

As far as the Pali is concerned, since I'm not an expert on Pali I've simply collected the translations that I have access to and given the caveat that this a verse section of a dense Sutta so any clarification would need an expert (not just a Pali dictionary...).

As to exactly how one maintains such mindfulness, that's more a question of meditative approach than Pali. Obviously it's a key question, but it might be better pursued in the Meditation forum, e.g. in threads such as:
The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7110

:anjali:
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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby starter » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:46 pm

Hi Mike,

I mean the translations of the previous verses of the SN 35.95 Maalunkyaputta Sutta which explains "One fares mindfully in such a way". I don't mean general discussions on mindfulness or insight meditation. Metta,

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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:18 am


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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:22 am

Mike has a really good point.

The missing word (furnished by the English equivalent within parentheses) was probably cut out for metri causa to keep the sentence within the 8-syllable "siloka" verse metre employed in both sets of verse.

Sometimes, it's quite interesting to see what happens when the metre cannot be maintained, and we will really have to look deeper to see if it was deliberate (to emphasise a doctrinal point) or simply a case of too many syllables that could not be left out.

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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:40 am

Thanks Sylvester for explaining a bit more detail of why the subject was omitted in that line.

It's interesting that both Walshe and Ven Thanissaro left the subject rather indeterminate whereas Vens Mahasi and Bodhi followed the suggestion of the commentary. It gives quite a different feel to the verse.

:anjali:
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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby starter » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:04 pm

Hi Mike,

Thanks again for the big help. I wonder if it's better to translated the omitted subject as "craving" instead of "suffering" in the following verse:

"One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up. [*]
for one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbana is said to be close by."

The following verse seems to suggest that one should fare mindfully with a dispassionate mind (e.g. by seeing the form as anicca/dukkha/anatta) instead of by bare attention/non-conceptualization.

"When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
On experiences it with a dispassionate mind
and does not remain holding it tightly."
-- BB translation

"Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
" -- BT translation

It seems to me that non-conceptualization occurs at the end of the path as the end result of our practice, instead of serving as the means of practice at the beginning of our path.

Metta,

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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:04 pm


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Re: Exact meaning of "Khīyati nopacīyati, evam so caratī sato"?

Postby yuttadhammo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:54 am





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