Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Vipassana and shamatha are not separate.

Well, the Śrāvakayāna and the Mahāyāna Pāramitāyāna are both developmental paths. But even within the Theravāda Abhidharma, both śamatha & vipaśyanā are concomitant with any skillful mind or supramundane mind.


You are talking the result already. I'm talking about the development.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:32 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?

This is a good point and you are correct. A lot (99%) of what goes on in the DC isn't really Dzogchen. lt is aspirational Dzogchen , which isn't Dzogchen at all.


That's just crazy talk. Rinpoche is always teaching Dzogchen and giving direct introduction and guru yoga. It is Nyingthig Atiyoga, the pure part.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:46 pm

Sally Gross wrote:
I find myself wondering whether we, in these decadent times, no longer breathe so that it becomes impracticable to be mindful of breathing...


This isn't really the method. Mindfulness is a mistranslation of sati. Introversion of attention. They way Satipatthana is taught is a bit screwed up. When there is an urge, there is a change in the body, like heart rate or respiration. A feeling comes about, like tension. A mood arises, like anger. And thoughts arise. When one pays attention to these things happening, they slowly come to a stop, leaving no e-motion other than breathing, then one enters into jhanas. In the fourth jhana one begins to see the skandhas working. It's like being sucked down a drain. It all happens automatically. Thus, taking mindfulness of feelings, etc., is dividing up what is a whole, and so it becomes much more difficult to get the result.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:59 pm

Jnana wrote:or rang rig dran pa, which is “self-aware mindfulness,” which is completely beyond that framework of subject and object.


If you really penetrate the meaning of this, it is beyond effort or thinking, okay now I'm being mindful, another way of saying this would be un-mindfulness as Saraha's doha explains.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:01 pm

deepbluehum wrote:That's just crazy talk. Rinpoche is always teaching Dzogchen and giving direct introduction and guru yoga. It is Nyingthig Atiyoga, the pure part.

Rinpoche never teaches Dzogchen. It just seems that way. O.k it's like this: Rinpoche is an inspiration. Dzogchen tantras are an inspration. Experience is an inspiration. Nothing is being taught or learnt or applied or fixed-up. Just that the inspiration keeps revealing how things are. Rinpoche is a clear example of pure presence that knows it's state. That pure presence is pervasive and so to is the knowledge of it.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:05 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:That's just crazy talk. Rinpoche is always teaching Dzogchen and giving direct introduction and guru yoga. It is Nyingthig Atiyoga, the pure part.

Rinpoche never teaches Dzogchen. It just seems that way. O.k it's like this: Rinpoche is an inspiration. Dzogchen tantras are an inspration. Experience is an inspiration. Nothing is being taught or learnt or applied or fixed-up. Just that the inspiration keeps revealing how things are. Rinpoche is a clear example of pure presence that knows it's state. That pure presence is pervasive and so to is the knowledge of it.


"I am always teaching Dzogchen." ChNN

It seems to me like there is a stage on the path where folks get caught up in the nonconceptual part of the teaching, and then end up losing common sense.

Here's where you are wrong. Experience is not an inspiration. "Experience is concrete." ChNN. "It is with experience that you discover your real nature." ChNN "What is experience. Experience of your body, speech and mind." ChNN
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus



Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.
Yes it has Marigpas: first marigpa called unelightenment of single self (rgub dagnyind dchigpa) and second is called innate unelightenment (lhangchig skyespa). Third marigpa with no return to the state of Samantabhadra is called unelightenment of imaginaries (kuntu brtagspa). So it is not the case after recognizing Rigpa one can have next moment again the Mind because there was a fault in this Rigpa. Rigpa has all qualities since the beginning, one o them is the potentiality to manifest the Mind too, but somehow it is already spontaneous accomplished (lhundrup) not causing dualism (as the Samantabhadra does it) or not. This is fully evident during self-liberation or not in one's own bardo of dharmata and is cultivated during real practice of dzogchen during lifetime when you are in the state of Rigpa or not. For example visions of thogal have nothing to do with the Mind, but it is possible to have breaks for ordinary life activity. Or can you correct me?
Last edited by Mariusz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:21 pm

deepbluehum wrote:"I am always teaching Dzogchen." ChNN
"Experience is concrete." ChNN.
"It is with experience that you discover your real nature." ChNN
"What is experience. Experience of your body, speech and mind." ChNN

Right. Did I say something different?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Norwegian » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:24 pm

Andrew108,

You said: "Rinpoche never teaches Dzogchen."

Which is straight forward nonsense.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:28 pm

I also said that Rinpoche was inspirational. In the sense that he is inspirational then he is always teaching Dzogchen. It is not the case that we go and study with him and we get the Dzogchen knowledge from him because he is teaching Dzogchen. It is not like that. It seems like that but it really isn't like that.
Dzogchen works on the inspirational level not the aspirational level.
Edit* The teacher is like a gap in the clouds. Sun always shines through that gap. I don't get caught up with anything other than that.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus



Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.


Exactly, and after that he is known as Samnthabadra and he don't have ignorance.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby rai » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:57 pm

Andrew108 wrote:I also said that Rinpoche was inspirational. In the sense that he is inspirational then he is always teaching Dzogchen. It is not the case that we go and study with him and we get the Dzogchen knowledge from him because he is teaching Dzogchen. It is not like that. It seems like that but it really isn't like that.
Dzogchen works on the inspirational level not the aspirational level.
Edit* The teacher is like a gap in the clouds. Sun always shines through that gap. I don't get caught up with anything other than that.


i like that :smile:. so in that sense all the realized Dzogchenpas are teaching Dzogchen constantly whether they verbalize it or not, right?

edit. it would be kind of skilful not to verbalize it and teach on lojong all the time, whoever "gets it" - fine but those who don't at least will do some lojong instead of passing time on endless conceptualization of the "highest" view.
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:13 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus



Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.


Exactly, and after that he is known as Samnthabadra and he don't have ignorance.

/magnus
Your ribirths in samsara are numerous. Many times you have died and experienced bardo of dharmata. In all these bardos of dharmata you have done first and second unelightnment (marigpas) of Samantabhadra but never you were reenlightened with the return. Always you have done the third marigpa until ordinary bardo state and the next rebirth. You see?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby xylem » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:14 pm

what i think is easy to forget is that great beings attain realization in the middle of social, cultural and historical context. they don't come to realization in a void. so while they achieve a realization that transcends all concepts, they exist in a sea of concepts and duality. they have a body of flesh that exists in a network of social relationships, and they came to realization through some practice that has a cultural and historical context in a certain time and place. one of my teachers said that all dharma systems have errors-- including his own-- precisely for this reason. there are inherent limitations to expressing a realization beyond limitations to beings bound by limitations.

i think it's important to keep this in mind when we look at different dharma systems. it's very easy to get into trying to order dharma systems. the view of this is higher than the view of that. in fact, the actual realized view transcends all of them, and the only reason there are any differences between dharma systems, isn't because the great masters of the past were fools, but because we are. we really need teachings with limitations because simply because we're limited. the dzogchen teachings themselves are limited as they are medicine for beings with limitations. actual primordial wisdom is the only exception. only it has no limits.

-xy
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Mariusz wrote:Your ribirths in samsara are numerous. Many times you have died and experience bardo of dharmata. In all these bardos of dharmata you have done first and second unelightnment (marigpas) of Samantabhadra but never you were reenlightened with the return. Always you have done the third marigpa until ordinary bardo state and the next rebirth. You see?


Sure, I have, but not Samanthabadra. He didn't even experience a single life. When we finally recognize what Samnthabadra recognized we will become like him, free from ignorance.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:22 pm

rai wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:I also said that Rinpoche was inspirational. In the sense that he is inspirational then he is always teaching Dzogchen. It is not the case that we go and study with him and we get the Dzogchen knowledge from him because he is teaching Dzogchen. It is not like that. It seems like that but it really isn't like that.
Dzogchen works on the inspirational level not the aspirational level.
Edit* The teacher is like a gap in the clouds. Sun always shines through that gap. I don't get caught up with anything other than that.


i like that :smile:. so in that sense all the realized Dzogchenpas are teaching Dzogchen constantly whether they verbalize it or not, right?

edit. it would be kind of skilful not to verbalize it and teach on lojong all the time, whoever "gets it" - fine but those who don't at least will do some lojong instead of passing time on endless conceptualization of the "highest" view.

No it wouldn't be skillful. Because then no one would get it for sure, sorry.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:25 pm

Mariusz wrote:For example visions of thogal have nothing to do with the Mind, but it is possible to have breaks for ordinary life activity.


"Samantabhadra" is a state of total integration where it is impossble to return to the state of being an ordinary person.

Below this level, we have alternating experiences of rigpa and marigpa.

This does not mean we need to do anything to acheive awakening. We merely need to extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7.

Samantabhadra has five definitions, one of those is "the basis Samantbhadra".

N
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:This does not mean we need to do anything to acheive awakening. We merely need to extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7.


True, still I use every trick I have to do just that, "extend the period of our non-dual integration from nanoseconds to 24/7". Which was probably why Vimalamitra practiced rushan six months out of every year at Vulture's peek at Rajghi, don't you think?

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby rai » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:06 pm

Pero wrote:
rai wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:I also said that Rinpoche was inspirational. In the sense that he is inspirational then he is always teaching Dzogchen. It is not the case that we go and study with him and we get the Dzogchen knowledge from him because he is teaching Dzogchen. It is not like that. It seems like that but it really isn't like that.
Dzogchen works on the inspirational level not the aspirational level.
Edit* The teacher is like a gap in the clouds. Sun always shines through that gap. I don't get caught up with anything other than that.


i like that :smile:. so in that sense all the realized Dzogchenpas are teaching Dzogchen constantly whether they verbalize it or not, right?

edit. it would be kind of skilful not to verbalize it and teach on lojong all the time, whoever "gets it" - fine but those who don't at least will do some lojong instead of passing time on endless conceptualization of the "highest" view.

No it wouldn't be skillful. Because then no one would get it for sure, sorry.


haha why not? DI is DI, no?
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:40 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:Your ribirths in samsara are numerous. Many times you have died and experience bardo of dharmata. In all these bardos of dharmata you have done first and second unelightnment (marigpas) of Samantabhadra but never you were reenlightened with the return. Always you have done the third marigpa until ordinary bardo state and the next rebirth. You see?


Sure, I have, but not Samanthabadra. He didn't even experience a single life. When we finally recognize what Samnthabadra recognized we will become like him, free from ignorance.

/magnus

Sure. Every time during the third marigpa you have started, not Samantabhadra.
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