Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:20 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus

In Dzogchen the state of Rigpa "has" already the all qualities. So i'm not sure you are right. First one should recognize this Rigpa with all qualities. As I understand, after it Dzogchen practice starts. Before all is the preliminary Dzogchen practice only, as extraordinary Rushen or special Ati Guru Yoga, or even ordinary preliminary Ngondro of Dzogchen.


Certainly rigpa have all the qualities from the beginning, it just don't last very long time. Dzogchen practice start the moment you get direct introduction and recognize the natural state, no matter what you are practicing at that time. You just integrate that recognition in whatever you do on the pillow or off the pillow. Realization, in Dzogchen, is when the mind (sem) lost it's grip on you.

/magnus
When you recognize this Rigpa with all qualities, there is no Mind. However one moment later it can arise somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner yet and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:20 pm

Andrew108 wrote:. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras.

Don't you study because you aspire to learn/understand/realize more?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:The question does not compute....

It makes perfect sense to me.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Mariusz wrote:]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:33 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:When you recognize this Rigpa with all qualities, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus
My Longchenpa extract from the book: If during the manifestation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) there will be threefold Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) this causes the transformation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) for Samsara according to the scheme. Only during the last third Marigpa Mind arises. There is also saying Samantabhadra can reenlightenment, or something like it? Maybe we should ask Malcolm here?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:40 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus
Longchenpa extraxt: If during the manifestation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) there will be threefold Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) this causes the transformation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) for Samsara according to the scheme. There is also saying Samantabhadra can reenlightenment, or something like it? Maybe we should ask Malcolm here?


Once you overcome ignorance it don't return, just like when you had smallpox you never get it again.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:43 pm

heart wrote:Once you overcome ignorance it don't return, just like when you had smallpox you never get it again.

/magnus
I'm not sure. there is Eight Modes of Arising of Spontaneous Accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub)beyond the Mind including Samsara again. Only during the last third Marigpa the Mind arises, not during first and second! During first and second, when beyond the Mind, is the return possible. This I understand as the reenlightnment of samantabhadra.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:50 pm

Tilopa wrote:
Simon E. wrote:The question does not compute....

It makes perfect sense to me.

Well thats alright then isn't it.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:54 pm

What is the tibetan for "reenlightenment"? I don't believe this term actually exists.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:55 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:Once you overcome ignorance it don't return, just like when you had smallpox you never get it again.

/magnus
I'm not sure. there is Eight Modes of Arising of Spontaneous Accomplishment (Wyl. Lhun-Grub)beyond the Mind including Samsara again. Only during the last third Marigpa the Mind arises, not during first and second! During first and second, when beyond the Mind, is the return possible. This I understand as the reenlightnment of samantabhadra.


I am sure. "To be unconfused and naturally liberated in the displays of spontaneous presence is also called Samantabhadra's ground of liberation." (Circle of the Sun)

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:58 pm

heart wrote:Once you overcome ignorance it don't return, just like when you had smallpox you never get it again.

Right.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:01 pm

Pero wrote:What is the tibetan for "reenlightenment"? I don't believe this term actually exists.
I will look at book "the practice of dzogchen for it. Perhaps I heard it also from some Rinpoche, so I will check my notes. However the theory of dzogchen is not so linear as mahayana, especially in Nyinthig, and you can suprise yourselves :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sönam » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:22 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:When you recognize this Rigpa with all qualities, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus
My Longchenpa extract from the book: If during the manifestation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) there will be threefold Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) this causes the transformation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) for Samsara according to the scheme. Only during the last third Marigpa Mind arises. There is also saying Samantabhadra can reenlightenment, or something like it? Maybe we should ask Malcolm here?


Samantabhadra do not have ignorance, this is clear ... Malcom already answered to that.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:31 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Pero wrote:What is the tibetan for "reenlightenment"? I don't believe this term actually exists.
I will look at book "the practice of dzogchen for it. Perhaps I heard it also from some Rinpoche, so I will check my notes. However the theory of dzogchen is not so linear as mahayana, especially in Nyinthig, and you can suprise yourselves :smile:



Samantabhadra both possessed igorance (innate ignorance and ignorance that resembles the cause) and once he recognized his own state, he never returned to a state of ignorance.



M
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:45 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus



Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:]When you recognize Rigpa, there is no Mind. However one moment later it arises somehow. It is called Marigpa. Even Samantabhadra can have Marigpa! Please read my notes: http://www.lamrimnotes.webs.com/dzogchen.html . More theory I don't know for sure, I'm a preliminary Dzogchen practitioner only and I'm focusing mainly on practice :shrug:


Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus



Samantabhadra had ignorance, but never experienced dualism because he recognized the arising of the basis as his own display.



Tashi delek,

There would be gross and subtle ignorance. The gross ignorance can be overcome but the subtle one not, this because it would not have a beginning.
Is this in agreement with Samatabhadra's ignorance?

How do you think about this?

Mutso Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:14 pm

Tilopa wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras.

Don't you study because you aspire to learn/understand/realize more?

In order to gain certainty one must study the Dzogchen Tantras.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sönam » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:14 pm

Sönam wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:Samantabhadra don't have any ignorance, and so he have no mind (sem) either. Sentient beings have mind (sem) and ignorance. I received very elaborate teachings on this over the years.

/magnus
My Longchenpa extract from the book: If during the manifestation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) there will be threefold Unenlightenment (Wyl. Ma-Rig-pa) this causes the transformation of the Appearances of the Basis (Wyl. Gzhi-sNang) for Samsara according to the scheme. Only during the last third Marigpa Mind arises. There is also saying Samantabhadra can reenlightenment, or something like it? Maybe we should ask Malcolm here?


Samantabhadra do not have ignorance, this is clear ... Malcom already answered to that.

Sönam


my misunderstanding ... I knew ignorance was present in the base, but I misinterpreted the state of Kuntu Zangpo as not being ma-rig-pa.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Sönam wrote:
my misunderstanding ... I knew ignorance was present in the base, but I misinterpreted the state of Kuntu Zangpo as not being ma-rig-pa.

Sönam


Ignorance 'arises' as an expression of the base. It is not 'existent' outside of being an expression of the base.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:28 pm

Tilopa wrote:Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.


Dzogchen's squirrelly. It's not effort in the sense of other paths. The direct introduction, you either got or you didn't. If you didn't get it, you try to be present, practice the semzin and then it is easy to be in instant presence. If you got it, instant presence is beyond effort.
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