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the great vegetarian debate - Page 50 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:38 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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andre9999
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:17 pm

Ron, the OP is about not farming animal products. You're really taking things off-topic.

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Hanzze
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Hanzze » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:21 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:27 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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andre9999
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:42 pm


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Hanzze
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Hanzze » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:16 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

VeganLiz
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby VeganLiz » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:44 pm

Welllllllll, if you- original poster, decide to take up a vegan way of life, by all means let me know... I can link you to some sites that I have found rather helpful in the past couple of years.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh

alan
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby alan » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:17 am

One good thing has happened on this thread: an artful turn of phrase.
"Prodigious woody matrices".
Sublimely creepy, and kind of beautiful in it's awfulness. These things need to be recognized and appreciated.

alan
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby alan » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:36 am

Oh, I'm just having some fun. I'm sure Ron's heart is in the right place and that he is a really caring guy.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:06 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:06 pm

I'm too old and tired to be discussing prodigious woodies.

M4
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: vegetarian vs veganist

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:19 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Jhana4
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:44 pm

I've been a vegetarian since I was 14 except for about 2 years in college. I have been vegan since the 1990s. I do it because it is such a positive choice and it returns many rewards. I'm still amazed by that. It isn't often in life you can do just one thing, help many others by it and get rewards for yourself in the process After 30 something years I can say it is one of the best decisions I made in my life.

If anyone is interested in learning about the reasons for going vegan, how to do it or the benefits you can expect, this is a great guide. You can also get a free hard copy of it mailed to you upon request:

http://www.tryveg.com

An excellent book for people who are still deciding is "Eating Animals" by novelist Jonathan Saffron Foer. It tells the story of his on again and off again vegetarianism. Upon the birth of his son he decided that it was time to go on again, permanently. The book follows his explorations as someone who was "not into it", but felt compelled to examine the issues. Foer did 3 years of his own research on the subject and hired a fact checker to review the book before publishing it. I consider the book to be a master piece as Foer is very talented with words, but also knows what good research is. It is rare to get that combination and the result is an inspiring book.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Ben
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Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:13 am

A good reason to go vegan...

Many of us don't give a second thought to where the milk in our latte or the cheese in our sandwich comes from.

But as the saying goes, there's a little bit of meat in every drop of milk. Behind the dairy industry lies a brutal secret: the 700,000 or so "bobby calves" slaughtered each year in this country at as young as five days of age.

Dairy cows are impregnated yearly in order to produce milk for human consumption. But their male calves are "surplus to needs".

Advertisement: Story continues below Most will be destined for the slaughterhouse within days of birth. Bobby calf meat is considered to be of low value and is predominantly exported as ground beef and offal to Japan and the US.

Others will be killed several months later, after they have been fattened up for veal.

Female calves are retained to follow in the footsteps of their mothers or, if not viable as dairy cows, will also be swiftly consigned to the abattoir.

Bobby calves endure long stretches of transport to regional abattoirs. This is a major stressor for any food animal, and even more so for calves, who are physiologically immature, with limited fat reserves, poorly developed ability to maintain body temperature and a lack of responsiveness to external stimuli.

Trucks can be overloaded, without bedding or room to lie down.

Calves are lifted and dragged by their tails or legs, or in some instances electrically prodded to get them moving. Many remain overnight, without sustenance, in the abattoir before they are slaughtered.

It is well established that cows, like humans, are sentient beings. They feel pain, distress, fear, vulnerability, loneliness, grief, hunger and thirst.

Mother cows form a strong maternal bond with their babies from as little as five minutes of contact after birth. Early separation of mother cows from their young causes stress, which is often manifested by distressed calling. Calves are traumatised after being taken from their mothers shortly after birth.

It is a forlorn picture. These newborn animals are utterly defenceless, and totally beholden to us. To serve our desire for cow's milk we bring them into being, with all their capacity to feel and their complex subjectivity, and then kill them pitilessly, as if they were the insensible by-product of an industrial machine.

The bobby calf trade exemplifies all that is ethically perverse in animal agribusiness.

Now, to make matters worse, the Australian government is proposing an amendment to livestock standards that will legalise the starvation of bobby calves for 30 hours before their slaughter.

Currently the unenforceable Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals: Land Transport of Cattle provides that calves should be fed within six hours of transportation and must not be left without appropriate liquid food for more than 10 hours.

The arguments being used to support the amendment are just as wrong-headed as the trade itself.

In the end, they boil down to reducing costs for the industry, and, as is so often the case, the government is onside with agribusiness.

The problem with this amendment, as with all the abuse of farm animals sanctioned by the regulations that purport to protect them, is that the "costs" – and they are heavy costs indeed – are merely displaced. They fall to the vulnerable beings we farm intensively for food.

Thirty hours without feed for bobby calves is barbaric. Calves are hungry from shortly after birth and become hungrier if not fed.

Internationally, transport standards require that farm animals be fed at least once or twice a day. In fact in the United Kingdom, the requirement is that farm animals be fed at intervals appropriate to their physiological needs (and, in any case, at least once a day).

Calves' normal feeding habit is to suckle five times a day. In Europe, regulations prescribe that nine hours' transport is to be followed by one hour's rest to allow calves to feed.

The amendment is now open for public consultation. However, if it wasn't for the media attention generated by animal welfare groups speaking out about the issue, the public would have been in the dark.

The community now has an opportunity to let government know that the so-called "welfare" standard they are promoting for bobby calves is unconscionable.

If the truth be told, the whole trade is unconscionable, and arguing about the number of hours a newborn calf can be deprived of milk before his or her slaughter fails to address the core issue: that the exploitation and commodification of animals like this is by definition unethical.

But surely, at the barest minimum, anyone with the slightest compassion for these doomed creatures, the forgotten wastage of the dairy industry, would not want their distress worsened by having them starved for their last hours on this earth.

The Regulatory Impact Statement for Public Consultation is available at www.animalwelfarestandards.net.au.

The deadline for submissions on the amendment is close of business on February 3. Written submissions addressing the amendment can be emailed to [email protected] or forwarded to:

Bobby Calf TOF RIS Submissions

Animal Health Australia

Suite 15 26-28 Napier Close

DEAKIN ACT 2600

Brian Sherman and Ondine Sherman are co-founders and managing directors of animal protection think tank Voiceless.

-- http://www.theage.com.au/environment/an ... 1a7tb.html
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

PeterB
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:44 am

If like the majority of caucasians one lacks lactase once past adolescence, one has yet another reason to eschew dairy...those sniffles that never become a real cold, that tendency to bouts of loose stools, that excema around the joints, are all possible indicators of low lactase levels which lead to lactose intolerance.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:55 am

Ben,
I agree that it's not a pretty picture, and I admit that my mind has been on other things in the last week, but surely it's a bit late to be publicising the call for responses? The cut-off was Feb 3, nearly a week ago.
:namaste:
Kim

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zavk
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby zavk » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:03 am

With metta,
zavk

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Ben
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:05 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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legolas
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby legolas » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:11 am

I would suggest it is a good reason for more oversight and control over an industry that consistently fails in its compassion.

However veganism or vegetarianism is not Buddhism



Food religions will always cause conflict.

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Ben
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Re: Brutal secret behind the dairy industry

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:18 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..


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