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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:01 pm 
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Yontan wrote:
I remember well her shock, as Gangteng Tulku advised a student (sorry if you've heard this story before) whose mother was always quite distressed every Sunday during their visits because the student would not attend church service with her. "Just go to church! Pray." He pointed out that within the dzogchen view every teaching is remedial, and therefor flawed. It's all about "in accordance with the needs of beings." It always has been. Just that within Dzogchen there's infinite opportunity to express it.
"Free from limitations" as Malcolm mentioned.

Dra Thalgyur:
"Out of all of these different beliefs
There are countless assertions,
because dzogchen manifests in every possible way.
Still, the actual view of the true state
is free from any one of them."

Thanks for sharing. :smile:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Pero wrote:
Yontan wrote:
I remember well her shock, as Gangteng Tulku advised a student (sorry if you've heard this story before) whose mother was always quite distressed every Sunday during their visits because the student would not attend church service with her. "Just go to church! Pray." He pointed out that within the dzogchen view every teaching is remedial, and therefor flawed. It's all about "in accordance with the needs of beings." It always has been. Just that within Dzogchen there's infinite opportunity to express it.
"Free from limitations" as Malcolm mentioned.

Dra Thalgyur:
"Out of all of these different beliefs
There are countless assertions,
because dzogchen manifests in every possible way.
Still, the actual view of the true state
is free from any one of them."

Thanks for sharing. :smile:



Tashi delek,

Yes a Dzogchenpa is free of many limitations.

It would not mean that a Dzogchenpa can do everything. He / she is also practising ethics.
I cannot imagine myself that a Dzogchenpa is an Al Qaida member.

Sometimes i go with my girlfriend to a very old Catholic Church, the Dom of Aachen.
There we burn some candles, and it gives a good feeling. Sure i could also visit an Islamitic church etc.

Here i can agree fully a Dzogchenpa is not limited only in case of ethics i have some problems with those.
I have the feeling that i cannot act in all illusions. This also because my neighbours would not understand that.
But also there is no need for it.

A Dzogchenpa does not kill humans for instance that is something which is very clear.

Here i have the feeling that a certain limited factor is playing an important role.
So Dzogchen would be not limited but a Dzogchenpa does to a certain degree. Karma is somehow still counting......
Or there is still suffering in the 6 worlds.

Maybe some others have here some additional informations / opinions (as a Dzogchenpa)?


Mutsog Marro
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:32 pm 
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It's a breeze being part of the ocean of natural liberation where there's not much work to do
There isn't a really a destination to sail to.
Perfectly Pure Presence that must be me
How was I ever a duality?
Yes the unfound moment always fresh
Presence like that releases itself
Praise to the teacher and thanks to my friends
Samantabadras dimension never started - no end.
Beyond limits, presence is what it is - catholic priest - thief or theft.
Never separate from pure presence samaya is kept.

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The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Andrew108 wrote:
It's a breeze being part of the ocean of natural liberation where there's not much work to do
There isn't a really a destination to sail to.
Perfectly Pure Presence that must be me
How was I ever a duality?
Yes the unfound moment always fresh
Presence like that releases itself
Praise to the teacher and thanks to my friends
Samantabadras dimension never started - no end.
Beyond limits, presence is what it is - catholic priest - thief or theft.
Never separate from pure presence samaya is kept.



Tashi delek,

If a Dzogchenpa does the practice well then he/she is automaticly practising ethics, that is clear.
But what is outside the Natural State happening?

My tax bill has to be paid, etc. How to deal with those illusions?
I guess that karma is here counting on the conventional way.

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:03 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
So Dzogchen would be not limited but a Dzogchenpa does to a certain degree. Karma is somehow still counting......


    "When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us."

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 193-195). Kindle Edition.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
So Dzogchen would be not limited but a Dzogchenpa does to a certain degree. Karma is somehow still counting......


    "When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us."

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 193-195). Kindle Edition.



Tashi delek,

That is well said to overcome limits. But we still have to deal with some illusions which have sometimes a karmic result, which is memorised like that.
Well i mean to overcome limits would be to get stable into the saddle.

This could be done in a retreat for some years and afterwards the good connected continuation without a job etc. .

This does cost money, no doubt and well a lot of money. To be busy with the realisation does would cost mysellf a lot of money.
So from one side yes, but from the other side the world of money, also in case of seen only with a temporal job etc. but it does cost time and karma.

Maybe there are others who have a cheaper / better solution for overcoming limits in our actual / different circumstances?

Many Tibetans did the retreat in a cave that was cheap and also the life after the retreat, they were luckier in tibet from before 1959.
We have here (are dealing with) a kind of slavery.


Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Jnana wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

Yes, as well as the willingness and receptivity of the student, i.e. devotion to the guru and the acceptance of the teaching. This narrows the field of potential candidates for dzogchen instruction. Also, it seems that one has to have functioning eyesight (or hearing) in order to engage in tögal practice. These are reasons why anyone who has received the bodhisattva vow can't really limit themselves to dzogchen. In this respect, the exoteric Buddhadharma is far more important than dzogchen for making liberation available to sentient beings.


Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen. Whether that is something that needs to be revised is something practitioners can discuss. Someone deaf could not have heard Buddha. Someone blind could not visualize the deity, perhaps, I don't know. A Bodhisattva can wait for their next life, and so can a Buddha who attains liberation through Dzogchen. You argument doesn't quite work.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:49 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen.


There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen.


There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.


Well that's encouraging. Dzogchen doesn't seem to leave any stones unturned. Is there anything to be done for deaf people who cannot hear transmission?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:38 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Functioning senses is one of the endowments needed for this to be a precious human life, as explained in Mahayana and Vajrayana generally, let alone Dzogchen.


There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.


Well that's encouraging. Dzogchen doesn't seem to leave any stones unturned. Is there anything to be done for deaf people who cannot hear transmission?


They have eyes, so yes.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:39 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
We have here (are dealing with) a kind of slavery.


This is something to combat. I try to use my wiles the best I can. I find that the less I conform, the better my practice goes. I try to always have something great to offer people, insight and support. When you have the dakas and dakinis on your side, the world is like a big helping hand, not that there are no hardships. Hardships become allies as in Vajrayana. Even the twinges of madness that come from nonconformity manifest like the wrathful deity like Dorje Drolo. Finally, my nightmares are transforming. When I dreamt I was thrown in a giant concrete prison, it transformed into a pizza parlor with the best Neapolitan pizzas you ever ate. He he.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

There are Dzogchen instructions (thögal) for those who are blind explained in the Gongpa Zangthal teachings.


Well that's encouraging. Dzogchen doesn't seem to leave any stones unturned. Is there anything to be done for deaf people who cannot hear transmission?


They have eyes, so yes.


How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:44 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?


Transmission is not only by sound, but can be communicated through any of the five senses. The main point is that they understand.

And then there is sign language.

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http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?


Transmission is not only by sound, but can be communicated through any of the five senses. The main point is that they understand.

And then there is sign language.


I see.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:00 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Jnana wrote:
In these cases mainstream Nikāya Buddhism has an advantage for turning the mind towards the dharma in that these teachings are more accessible via step-by-step investigation and analysis.


The problem with Nikaya buddhism is none of you knows what the hell it's really saying, the methods propounded do not resemble what Buddha really taught, and so they don't really work.


That's really going too far. Nikaya Buddhism is relatively straight-forward and is directly harnessing purification of karma with the primary focus on attitude and morality and non-esoteric methods. Secondly it can be a straight-forward practice of shamatha and vipashyana. And it does definitely work. However liberation takes a while.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:06 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
The problem with Nikaya buddhism is none of you knows what the hell it's really saying, the methods propounded do not resemble what Buddha really taught, and so they don't really work. Buddhism is greatly degraded, as is society. Hope to rescue all sentient beings is a nice thought, but there's no real hope that it might happen this go around of the eon. We will have to wait until Buddha Maitreya. Until then, there is Vajrayana and Dzogchen which are said to work even better at times like this. Masters with small followings will always be around so it's not like no one can get liberation. Anyone can get it. All it takes is interest.


Oy vey Maria ....

Much depends on what you mean by "Nikaya Buddhism". I assume that the term "Nikaya" refers to the Nikaayas of the Sutta Pitaka, the Pali canon of discourses (the Digha Nikaaya, the Majjhima Nikaaya, the Samyutta Nikaaya, the Anguttara Nikaaya and so on), to their counterparts preserved in Chinese translation from Sanskrit originals in the Aagamas, and to cognate discourses and fragments of discourses preserved in other languages such as Gaandhaarii. Are you claiming that the teaching found in these discourses bears little resemblance, if any at all to what the Buddha actually taught, that the methods expounded in what you might be claiming to be corrupt forgeries of the word of the Buddha are therefore inefficacious, and that the teaching in these discourses reflects a corrupt and degraded version of the Buddha's actual teaching? Should this indeed be your contention, I'd imagine that a good many people -- not excluding some on this sub-forum -- would disagree with you. What, on your account, did the historical Buddha really teach? Are the first three Noble Truths and the Fourth Truth, the Noble Eightfold Path, distortions of the teaching of the Buddha Sakyamuni and his immediate disciples? I hope that I have got you wrong, because I fear, if I have not misconstrued what you say, that you are chucking out the baby with the bathwater. Dzogchen teachings, being free of limitations, afford ample space for appreciating the best available sources for the overt, exoteric teachings of the historical Buddha.

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:45 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
It's a breeze being part of the ocean of natural liberation where there's not much work to do
There isn't a really a destination to sail to.
Perfectly Pure Presence that must be me
How was I ever a duality?
Yes the unfound moment always fresh
Presence like that releases itself
Praise to the teacher and thanks to my friends
Samantabadras dimension never started - no end.
Beyond limits, presence is what it is - catholic priest - thief or theft.
Never separate from pure presence samaya is kept.



Tashi delek,

If a Dzogchenpa does the practice well then he/she is automaticly practising ethics, that is clear.
But what is outside the Natural State happening?

My tax bill has to be paid, etc. How to deal with those illusions?
I guess that karma is here counting on the conventional way.

Mutsog Marro
KY


No one oblige you to have an activity to pay taxes ... it's a choice you've made.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:52 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:

Well that's encouraging. Dzogchen doesn't seem to leave any stones unturned. Is there anything to be done for deaf people who cannot hear transmission?


They have eyes, so yes.


How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?


It's up to the student to realize the nature of the mind, not to the master ... the master shows you the way, and a smile can be enough.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:58 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

They have eyes, so yes.


How can a deaf person hear transmission with their eyes?


It's up to the student to realize the nature of the mind, not to the master ... the master shows you the way, and a smile can be enough.

Sönam


If someone's deaf and blind, then what are they supposed to do? The master has to communicate somehow. A smile is a far cry from the Direct Introduction of Six A. There are those limitations that someone cannot overcome so it's next life for them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:04 pm 
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deepbluehum wrote:

If someone's deaf and blind, then what are they supposed to do? The master has to communicate somehow. A smile is a far cry from the Direct Introduction of Six A. There are those limitations that someone cannot overcome so it's next life for them.


Braile and touch.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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