Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:15 pm

Hi Shemmy

Shemmy wrote:I am almost certain I have seen a translation from a passage in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib that describes the process of realization in terms of the movement of the energies in the nadis and the central channel. So, it doesn't seem much of a stretch that if that found its way into Sikhism that Dzogchen would.

Quite interesting.

Shemmy wrote:Yogi Bhajan, while being the rather controversial leader and self appointed head of Sikh dharma in the west, claimed to have recieved teachings from Tibetan gurus, though he would never say from whom specifically. Though, his yoga and meditations called Kundalini Yoga are powerful and effective, so perhaps there was some lineage. I even remember at one of the solstice "White Tantric" retreats he had Tibetan Mandalas sort of positioned around the meditation sala.

Yogi Bhajan's mission wasn't to spread the Sikh faith, it was to spread yoga. Specifically, to create teachers of it. He mentioned this on a nuber of occasions in interviews I have seen. He didn't try to spread Sikkhism at all, and then one day he was driving to class and he saw one of his western students wearing a turban. After that he said a group of his students all started becoming increasingly interested in his faith and some converted. Now there are many that have become Sikhs via there connection with KY and Yogi Bhajan.

Shemmy wrote:The importance of the Guru and the notion of just letting go and leaving things to God rather begging God and praying for this and that.

Yes. People see the word "God" and they hit the brakes. They don't look at what the Sikhs describe as god.

Shemmy wrote:The meditation technique of chanting and then stopping and dissolving all into infinity and meditating on the silence and vastness strikes me as similar to the the formless meditations you get in the inner yogas of Vajrayana.

Yes, it's like Guru Yoga.

Shemmy wrote:That you mention Guru Nanak as an emanation of Guru Rinpoche...wow! Somehow that just intuitively strikes me as hitting the nail on the head. Great inspiration for meditation and guru yoga! Thanks!

I am not sure if he was or not, but I would not doubt it. I do have a very strong feeling about the Siikh 10'th Guru though-- Guru Gobingh Singh.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:18 pm

Dear Ogyen, thanks for sharing your experience!

Ogyen wrote:It's just curious you created a thread on this, as it's something I've wondered about myself..

:namaste:

That's telling!

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:17 pm

Interesting that after Nanak's initial realization he was silent for some time and then his first words were "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim".
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Pero » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:48 pm

Stewart wrote:I am a DC member....before someone says 'burn the heretic!'

:rolling:
:hug:

But I think that the fact that you are a DC member would've made you a heretic. Others are just infidels and blasphemers. :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:18 am

In the Sikh religion practice consists of bhajans (singing) and japa (mantra repetition). It is essentially the Hindu practice of bhakti yoga and mantra yoga. Not to mention it is about fighting in wars and they have children carrying guns at the Golden Temple. I have seen many shootings at Gurudwaras between feuding Sikhs. They can be a rather violent bunch. Sikhism doesn't resemble Dzogchen at all.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:36 am

deepbluehum wrote:I have seen many shootings at Gurudwaras between feuding Sikhs. They can be a rather violent bunch. Sikhism doesn't resemble Dzogchen at all.


Those certain persons (who may have been practitioners of sikhism) were violent. The violence stems from an issue on the level of the psyche, nothing to do with Sikhism or any other religion, race, sex, creed.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:39 am

Nighthawk wrote:[
his continuity is found in those cases in which sunn or sunya is employed as a symbol of the Absolute. Thus, for example, it is said that when one is awakened to the teaching of the Guru, one merges into the Void (sunn samaia) even while alive—jivat sunni samania gur sakhi jagi (GG, 857). Of course the concept of the Absolute in Sikhism differs from that in the Madhyamika, but there can be no doubt that the Absolute is called sunn because it is devoid of duality and discrimination. This negative structure in speech with regard to the Reality is the basic function of the symbol sunn. All positive descriptions imply limitation and determination. The word sunn declares that the Truth is beyond limitations and determinations. Emptiness of Buddhism means ‘no doctrine about Truth’; sunn in Sikhism means ‘no conception about the Inconceivable.’


Yes, thank you Nighthawk.

Sunn is the Sikh term for empty (referring to "god"), Śūnyatā is the Buddhist term for the same thing (we are really talking about the same term here). "God" in Sikhism also refers to everything, it is not an explicit, separate enitity. They also refer to "God" as self-luminous and desireless, among other things.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:00 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I have seen many shootings at Gurudwaras between feuding Sikhs. They can be a rather violent bunch. Sikhism doesn't resemble Dzogchen at all.


Those certain persons (who may have been practitioners of sikhism) were violent. The violence stems from an issue on the level of the psyche, nothing to do with Sikhism or any other religion, race, sex, creed.


Guru Gobind Singh transformed a yogi religion into a soldier religion. The soldier and warfare mentality is deeply ingrained there. If you become a sikh and get involved in Gurudwara activities, you cannot avoid it. If you just want to go for lungar, they will serve lunch and then you can go. That's very nice. But if you become sikh, violence and feuding in Gurudwaras is a huge massive widespread problem. These are not isolated cases. You can find weapons caches in the Gurudwara. Some might say this is only the work of the Jats. It is true the Jats are a particularly rambunctious subcaste, but they totally dominate the Sikh culture and in any event exemplify Guru Gobind Singh's ethos to the highest degree.

Any way, Dzogchen is the religion of the dancing dakinis. Dzogchen is completely different from sikhism, thankfully.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:06 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Guru Gobind Singh transformed a yogi religion into a soldier religion. The soldier and warfare mentality is deeply ingrained there.

Sikhism is a peaceful religion, some Sikhs may not be peaceful. That is just like Christianity. Christ was very peaceful, Christians have not always followed in his footsteps.

As far as Guru Gonind Singh goes, his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib, who was the 9'th Guru, was killed by Muslims for not converting to Islam when Guru Gonind Singh was only 9 years old. Guru Gobind Singh felt Sikhs must stand up to Muslim extremists who wanted to kill them all because they practiced the Sikh faith. Is he such a bad man? Likewise Sikh's faught back the Brits, when the Brits, who were invading foreigners wanted to sack their homeland and holy temple and change their way of life. Sorry that the Sikhs weren't perfect pacifists.

After all, this is about philosophy - especially what is contained in the Sikh scriptures - and not on things that happened on account of history.


Thanks,

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:18 am

Virgo wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Guru Gobind Singh transformed a yogi religion into a soldier religion. The soldier and warfare mentality is deeply ingrained there.

Sikhism is a peaceful religion. Some Sikhs may not be peaceful. Just like Christianity. Christ was very peaceful, Christians have not always followed in step.

As far as Guru Gonind Singh goes, his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib, was killed by Muslims for not converting to Islam when Guru Gonind Singh was only 9 years old. Guru Gobind Singh felt Sikhs must stand up to Muslim extremists who wanted to kill them all because they practiced the Sikh faith. Is he such a bad man? Likewise Sikh's faught back the Brits, when the Brits, who were invading foreigners wanted to sack their homeland and holy temple and change their way of life. Sorry that the Sikhs weren't perfect pacifists.

After all, this is about Philosophy - especially what is contained in Sikh scriptures, and not on thinsg that happened on account of history.


Thanks,

Kevin


I know the stories. Some of these gurus sons were boiled in oil or fried on a plate when they were just children. Of course, the muslims were horrible. Sikhs were great warriors in history. Hindu families do not give them enough credit, as most sikhs are apt to say. Karmic cause and effect, now the Sikhs are often very violent and use the tales of these stories to be very anti-muslim and anti-hindu. It's just attachment to identity and history. Sikhism is just like any other worldly religion taking sides and fighting. It is nothing like Dzogchen. There is no comparison whatsoever. The situation with Hindus isn't any better. Just this weekend a Rajasthani man beheaded his daughter for sleeping around. This happens all the time. Brahmins teach their "santana dharma" where women are like farmed soil, once tilled, they can never be farmed again by another farmer. In other words, once women have sex with a man, she is useless for any other man. Hence, why widows are treated as pariahs on society. This goes to the heart of Hindu dogma. Again, Sikhism and Hinduism are in no way similar to Dzogchen which is actually and truly free of all limitations, beyond concepts and identity and can never be a reason to use a blade.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:25 am

deepbluehum wrote:Guru Gobind Singh transformed a yogi religion into a soldier religion. The soldier and warfare mentality is deeply ingrained there. If you become a sikh and get involved in Gurudwara activities, you cannot avoid it. If you just want to go for lungar, they will serve lunch and then you can go. That's very nice. But if you become sikh, violence and feuding in Gurudwaras is a huge massive widespread problem. These are not isolated cases. You can find weapons caches in the Gurudwara. Some might say this is only the work of the Jats. It is true the Jats are a particularly rambunctious subcaste, but they totally dominate the Sikh culture and in any event exemplify Guru Gobind Singh's ethos to the highest degree.


Right but the religion itself doesn't propagate violence. And there are other sikh sects and Sikh practitioners who aren't violent. The violence related to the gurudwara activities is the result of conditioning and groupthink. Just like Islamic extremists who engage in violent activity, Islam itself is a beautiful religion, the few bad apples who are jihadists don't speak for the whole. It would be like saying "there's been over 200 murders in Oakland this year, everyone who lives in Oakland is a murderer."

deepbluehum wrote:Any way, Dzogchen is the religion of the dancing dakinis. Dzogchen is completely different from sikhism, thankfully.


Undoubtably.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:35 am

This isn't really what this thread is about. It is abut philosophy. If you want to start a different thread about how Sikhs act with Muslims, or Muslims act with Sikhs, or about what a minority of modern day Sikhs are like in this day and age and compare their actions with the action of Dzogchen practitioners, fine. But that would be a different thread. This one is about philosophy, which is at the heart of Sikhism.

Thank you,

:namaste:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby NIRMAL2 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:38 am

The Ardass(mass prayer): Raaj keray ga Khalsa, baki rehay na koi( the Khalsa will rule and no one else shall exist). Is this in any way based on Dzogchen?
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:41 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Guru Gobind Singh transformed a yogi religion into a soldier religion. The soldier and warfare mentality is deeply ingrained there. If you become a sikh and get involved in Gurudwara activities, you cannot avoid it. If you just want to go for lungar, they will serve lunch and then you can go. That's very nice. But if you become sikh, violence and feuding in Gurudwaras is a huge massive widespread problem. These are not isolated cases. You can find weapons caches in the Gurudwara. Some might say this is only the work of the Jats. It is true the Jats are a particularly rambunctious subcaste, but they totally dominate the Sikh culture and in any event exemplify Guru Gobind Singh's ethos to the highest degree.


Right but the religion itself doesn't propagate violence. And there are other sikh sects and Sikh practitioners who aren't violent. The violence related to the gurudwara activities is the result of conditioning and groupthink. Just like Islamic extremists who engage in violent activity, Islam itself is a beautiful religion, the few bad apples who are jihadists don't speak for the whole. It would be like saying "there's been over 200 murders in Oakland this year, everyone who lives in Oakland is a murderer."


I understand the argument. [And I understand there are peaceful sikhs and peaceful muslims. They're peaceful despite their relgious cultural milieu, not because of it.] I don't agree it applies in the case of Sikhism or Islam for that matter where violence and war are not tangential to the story but formative of it.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:42 am

nirmal wrote:The Ardass(mass prayer): Raaj keray ga Khalsa, baki rehay na koi( the Khalsa will rule and no one else shall exist). Is this in any way based on Dzogchen?


Exactly.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:54 am

deepbluehum wrote:
I understand the argument. I don't agree it applies in the case of Sikhism or Islam for that matter where violence and war are not tangential to the story but formative of it.

I am not really sure what you think. Perhaps you think that I think that the Sikh Gurus secretely practiced Dzogchen and allowed it to influence the faith as it developed over hundreds of years? That is not what I am saying at all. What I am discussing here is whether Guru Nanak (the original founder of Sikkhism) received Dzogchen teachings in Tibet, and whether they influenced the philosophy he established within Sikhism. I am not asking if Sikhs went to war much later, I am not asking how modern day Sikhs act, I am not asking about modern day mass prayers. I am asking about the founding philosphy, and the founding philosopher, and Dzogchen. Anything else deepbluehum is off topic. Thanks.

Now if you have some documentation that Guru Nanak the founding Guru of Sikkhism (who is said in Sikh accounts to have travelled to Tibet, and who some accounts claim is an emenation of Guru Rinpoche and so forth) felt that Sikhs should go to war with other people then fine, we can talk about that in this thread and what impact it may have on whether he may or may not have practiced and formulated Sikkhism based on Dzogchen influences, ottherwise I am really not interested. Thank you.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:09 am

deepbluehum wrote:I understand the argument. I don't agree it applies in the case of Sikhism or Islam for that matter where violence and war are not tangential to the story but formative of it.


War and violence are not formative characteristics of the Sikh or Muslim religions. Unfortunately nowadays with the war campaign going on in the middle east, regions where violence is prominent are culturally islamic, but Islam itself is a peaceful religion. It's all a matter of perception, there's probably some individuals in afghanistan saying the same thing about western culture and judeo-Christian religions. Both sides are right and wrong in their respective ways. Violence doesn't stem from the religion itself but from certain individuals/groups involved with said religion. We wonder why those regions are violent, given the mind state of most people nowadays if your country was being occupied by an outside force the people of your country would most likely be violent too (Tibet being an exception to this example).
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:33 am

Virgo wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
I understand the argument. I don't agree it applies in the case of Sikhism or Islam for that matter where violence and war are not tangential to the story but formative of it.

I am not really sure what you think. Perhaps you think that I think that the Sikh Gurus secretely practiced Dzogchen and allowed it to influence the faith as it developed over hundreds of years? That is not what I am saying at all. What I am discussing here is whether Guru Nanak (the original founder of Sikkhism) received Dzogchen teachings in Tibet, and whether they influenced the philosophy he established within Sikhism. I am not asking if Sikhs went to war much later, I am not asking how modern day Sikhs act, I am not asking about modern day mass prayers. I am asking about the founding philosphy, and the founding philosopher, and Dzogchen. Anything else deepbluehum is off topic. Thanks.


I see. Guru Nanak was a syncretist who gathered practices from all around and made a stew. The Guru Granth Sahib mentions Buddha and Nirvana. Ek on kar, sat nam, karta purak, nirvo nirvan. This first verse of the Guru Granth Sahib is about nirvana. But, the founding philosophy is that the way to practice is through bhakti yoga in the form of singing bhajans and doing japa of "wahe guru sat nam," which is an epithet for the creator god like Allah. So still no similarity between Dzogchen and Sikhism. Whatever he learned from Tibet is certainly was not as profound as Dzogchen. I don't think Guru Nanak Dev had anything resembling the power of Guru Rinpoche who is most definitely unmatched in the world in terms of yogic power. The mystical Sikhism is more like Sufism. Guru Nanak Dev was much more heavily influenced by Mardana his muslim attendant and spent much more time in Muslim lands doing Sufi practice.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:36 am

asunthatneversets wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:I understand the argument. I don't agree it applies in the case of Sikhism or Islam for that matter where violence and war are not tangential to the story but formative of it.


War and violence are not formative characteristics of the Sikh or Muslim religions. Unfortunately nowadays with the war campaign going on in the middle east, regions where violence is prominent are culturally islamic, but Islam itself is a peaceful religion. It's all a matter of perception, there's probably some individuals in afghanistan saying the same thing about western culture and judeo-Christian religions. Both sides are right and wrong in their respective ways. Violence doesn't stem from the religion itself but from certain individuals/groups involved with said religion. We wonder why those regions are violent, given the mind state of most people nowadays if your country was being occupied by an outside force the people of your country would most likely be violent too (Tibet being an exception to this example).


Muhammed was a general who led armies in conquest. So was Guru Gobind Singh. In the case of Guru Gobind Singh it was a rebellion in self-defense against atrocities and genocide. In the case of Muhammed, it was to promote atrocities and genocide. I am not influenced by American or Western television. I am much more influenced by history. Ask yourself, if Islam were to disappear from the face of the Earth, would the world be a better place, or no difference? What about Buddha-dharma? Without Buddhism, the world would be uninhabitable.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:08 am

deepbluehum wrote:

I see. Guru Nanak was a syncretist who gathered practices from all around and made a stew.


He went all arounnd looking for the highest/ truest teachings. He did incorporate many things but he was seeking the highest, I wouldn't say he just "made a stew".

deepbluehum wrote: The Guru Granth Sahib mentions Buddha and Nirvana. Ek on kar, sat nam, karta purak, nirvo nirvan. This first verse of the Guru Granth Sahib is about nirvana.

Also talks about god being everything, all beings and things being a reflection of god. God (and all phenomena, mind and matter) empty, self luminous, and so on. Come on, it is obvious he was influenced by his visits to the Buddhist lands, Tibet, Sikkhim, etc.


deepbluehum wrote: But, the founding philosophy is that the way to practice is through bhakti yoga in the form of singing bhajans and doing japa of "wahe guru sat nam," which is an epithet for the creator god like Allah.

A creator like Allah? No not exactly.

deepbluehum wrote:
I don't think Guru Nanak Dev had anything resembling the power of Guru Rinpoche who is most definitely unmatched in the world in terms of yogic power.

No one said Guru Nanak Dev performed many miracles like Guru Rinpoche did. But some people (apparently many Tibetans if you read what I posted on the first pages of the thread) believe him to be an emenation of Guru Rinpoche. This gives more credence to the possibility him being a Dzogchenpa.

deepbluehum wrote: Guru Nanak Dev was much more heavily influenced by Mardana his muslim attendant and spent much more time in Muslim lands doing Sufi practice.

There may be Sufi infleunces, this is certainly possible. But his Sikh bios also have him doing a retreat after visiting Samye (a Nyingma temple). . .

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