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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Yes, you are right! Institutional Buddhism will never be the same again. The death knell has sounded. All praise the new king! etc... ad nauseum...
:namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
That particular body of water will not be back as a discrete entity I suspect.


That's what happens when you can't get a boy to stick his finger into a dyke.

:woohoo:

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:01 pm 
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I expect the dyke is relieved.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
I expect the dyke is relieved.


LOL :)

Karma Vipaka has no limits so who know where the flow may take us all?

Sometimes a pebble drops into the water and creates ripples of gentle movement, at other times there is a flood and millions of pebbles are washed to another place.

One or two pebbles here have caused a ripple, but you'd think it was a full blown tsunami. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Um sorry to be a party pooper but...

:focus: Dzochenpa Census


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:18 pm 
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OK :)

Is there any evidence that any DW members who were Buddhists practising Dzogchen before the growth of the DC presence here, are now no longer Buddhists?

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:24 pm 
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I was a long term Buddhist ...nearly thirty years.
I neither reject or accept that term for myself now.

I did not grow jaded. Just grew away. I do not urge anyone else to follow my example.


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:39 pm 
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This discussion on being bouddhist or not when practicing dzogchen is nearly ridiculous ... for any reason some have exagerated the sense of it.

What one can say is that from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore buddhist or non buddhist is of no importance, but this is from the pov of our real nature.

Sönam

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
I was a long term Buddhist ...nearly thirty years.
I neither reject or accept that term for myself now.

I did not grow jaded. Just grew away. I do not urge anyone else to follow my example.



I guess the fundamental change must be one of Refuge.

After all, we may fit the requirements of many faiths through meeting behavioural expectations, but ultimately it is Refuge which identifies our specific faith.

Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.

Is that a fair way to assess a change away from the label of 'Buddhist' ?

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
This discussion on being bouddhist or not when practicing dzogchen is nearly ridiculous ... for any reason some have exagerated the sense of it.

What one can say is that from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore buddhist or non buddhist is of no importance, but this is from the pov of our real nature.

Sönam


I think it is fair to ask, as this thread is in the Lounge and so we don't have to view this from a Dzogchen or ChNNR perspective.

The assertion you make that 'Buddhist or non Buddhist is of no importance' expresses precisely the view that Buddhists here may wish to adopt and drop their 'Buddhist' label. I'm curious to know how many have been affected by that view and have dropped their 'Buddhist' label and how many feel no need to do so.
I agree, there is no need to do so.

This is a Buddhist forum so there is no problem, surely, in asking others if they have changed from that view. :shrug:

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Last edited by Blue Garuda on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.


I take refuge in my real nature. This goes beyond, "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist".

Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.


I take refuge in my real nature. This goes beyond, "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist".

Kevin


That's not the question I was posing. I wanted to know how many no longer consider themselves Buddhists. To answer that Dzogchen is beyond such distinctions has been aired here very often, but isn't what I was asking.

It's a simple question, surely. The two answers could be paraphrased as:

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen, Buddhist afterwards.

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen teachings, no longer Buddhist.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Sönam wrote:
This discussion on being bouddhist or not when practicing dzogchen is nearly ridiculous ... for any reason some have exagerated the sense of it.

What one can say is that from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore buddhist or non buddhist is of no importance, but this is from the pov of our real nature.

Sönam


I think it is fair to ask, as this thread is in the Lounge and so we don't have to view this from a Dzogchen or ChNNR perspective.

The assertion you make that 'Buddhist or non Buddhist is of no importance' expresses precisely the view that Buddhists here may wish to adopt and drop their 'Buddhist' label. I'm curious to know how many have been affected by that view and have dropped their 'Buddhist' label and how many feel no need to do so.


No one would really disagree with: "from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore Buddhist or non Buddhist is of no importance." It does not mean that one has to drop any Buddhist labelling. Nor it does not mean that one has to not practice Buddhism.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.


I take refuge in my real nature. This goes beyond, "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist".

Kevin


That's not the question I was posing. I wanted to know how many no longer consider themselves Buddhists. To answer that Dzogchen is beyond such distinctions has been aired here very often, but isn't what I was asking.

It's a simple question, surely. The two answers could be paraphrased as:

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen, Buddhist afterwards.

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen teachings, no longer Buddhist.


You wanted to organize a poll :)

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
I was a long term Buddhist ...nearly thirty years.
I neither reject or accept that term for myself now.

I did not grow jaded. Just grew away. I do not urge anyone else to follow my example.



I guess the fundamental change must be one of Refuge.

After all, we may fit the requirements of many faiths through meeting behavioural expectations, but ultimately it is Refuge which identifies our specific faith.

Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.

Is that a fair way to assess a change away from the label of 'Buddhist' ?

What is there to take Refuge from ? Its all just stuff..
And here I am blithely typing words that once would have had me reaching for the Gun Of Buddhist Righteousness that I kept to hand..
Just to make one thing clear I did not reach this position as a result of reading Malcolm's posts.
I had already reached that position. Reading Malcolm's posts resulted in my posting to this forum.

But I am gabbling. :namaste:


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Sönam wrote:
This discussion on being bouddhist or not when practicing dzogchen is nearly ridiculous ... for any reason some have exagerated the sense of it.

What one can say is that from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore buddhist or non buddhist is of no importance, but this is from the pov of our real nature.

Sönam


I think it is fair to ask, as this thread is in the Lounge and so we don't have to view this from a Dzogchen or ChNNR perspective.

The assertion you make that 'Buddhist or non Buddhist is of no importance' expresses precisely the view that Buddhists here may wish to adopt and drop their 'Buddhist' label. I'm curious to know how many have been affected by that view and have dropped their 'Buddhist' label and how many feel no need to do so.


No one would really disagree with: "from the pov of our real nature, where you come from is of no importance ... therefore Buddhist or non Buddhist is of no importance." It does not mean that one has to drop any Buddhist labelling. Nor it does not mean that one has to not practice Buddhism.

Sönam




I asked whether people had abandoned the Buddhist label, not whether it was necessary.

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself clearly. I feel like I am asking if anyone changed their car lately and being answered by people pointing out that it is not necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
I asked whether people had abandoned the Buddhist label, not whether it was necessary.

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself clearly. I feel like I am asking if anyone changed their car lately and being answered by people pointing out that it is not necessary.



:lol: glad to see someone else is having um an interesting time trying to get a message across.

:oops: no I am not glad but I cannot help laughing out loud at the moment. ..... normal service (such as it is) will be resumed shortly.

:offtopic:

:focus:

Regards,


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.


I take refuge in my real nature. This goes beyond, "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist".

Kevin


I don't wish to be contrarian, but I must point out that "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist" means different things to different people--that's perhaps the most obvious "take-away" for anyone who's ever spent any time here at DW.

If one defines one's "Real Nature" as Buddha, then, perhaps, one is taking refuge in one's real nature when one is taking refuge in Buddha. I agree with My Cerulean Feathered Friend--how we define 'Buddha' makes a world of difference.

I don't think too many of us, for instance, take refuge in the organic remains of some Nepali-Prince-turned-Renunciate-turned-Awakened One who died 2500 years ago or so.....

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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
Followers of the Dharma may take Refuge in Dharma and Sangha but the main issue is how we define 'Buddha' as an object of Refuge.


I take refuge in my real nature. This goes beyond, "Buddhist" or "Non-Buddhist".

Kevin


That's not the question I was posing. I wanted to know how many no longer consider themselves Buddhists. To answer that Dzogchen is beyond such distinctions has been aired here very often, but isn't what I was asking.

It's a simple question, surely. The two answers could be paraphrased as:

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen, Buddhist afterwards.

Buddhist before encountering Dzogchen teachings, no longer Buddhist.

Hi BG,

I don't say "I am a Buddhist" nor do I say "I am not a Buddhist". I am not defined by those things.

Kevin

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http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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 Post subject: Re: Dzochenpa Census
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:37 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
I don't think too many of us, for instance, take refuge in the organic remains of some Nepali-Prince-turned-Renunciate-turned-Awakened One who died 2500 years ago or so.....


You mean venerating the relic Buddha finger I bought on eBay is pointless? Damn. LOL :)

The devil is in the detail, for sure.

Guruyoga comes in many forms and you could almost start at the other end and say that people who are not seeking their true nature are not Buddhists.

That would make a great thread........................not. ;)

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