Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:02 pm

Jikan wrote::thanks:

That's cool. I think common ground & mutual respect are great virtues in short supply.

Which reminds me: I was once in contact with a Sufi shaykh in California who described Dzogchenpas as the Sufis of Asia (he'd attended retreats with ChNN).

So who knows?

Wow that is interesting Jikan. Thanks a lot for that information.

I appreciate your input greatly.

Kevin
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Best Shabads by far:

Bhai Joginder Singh

What I listen to the most anymore, really....


And their older Shabads are just as good if not better.

Lhug-Pa those were great. Thank you very much.

Personally, i like Snatam Kaur very much,

Best,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 pm

Virgo wrote:
Jikan wrote:There are surely great masters among the Sikhs, inclusive of the Radhasoami tradition.

I think we'd honor them best by letting them be Sikhs, just taking them on their own terms rather than attempting to make Buddhists and/or Dzogchenpas out of them..

No one is attempting to turn anyone into anything Jikan. But as a Dzogchenpa I see a definite Dzogchenesque quallity to their belief systems, just packaged a little differently. I am not asserting that it definitely has to be the case, but pointing out the connection. Add to that that the founder visited Tibet and is considered an emenation of Guru Rinpoche in Tibet... and well, you have something very interesting, no?

Kevin



From 'The glossary of Tibetan terms and names for the Dzogchen community' Dzogchenpa; A realized Dzogchen practitioner.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves Kevin, you were asking about DC membership/login details only last week.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:10 pm

Stewart wrote:Let's not get ahead of ourselves Kevin, you were asking about DC membership/login details only last week.

That's only because my membership lapsed.

I have a number of Dzogchen Gurus anyway. ChNN is not the only one.

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:17 pm

Virgo wrote:
Stewart wrote:Let's not get ahead of ourselves Kevin, you were asking about DC membership/login details only last week.

That's only because my membership lapsed.

I have a number of Dzogchen Gurus anyway. ChNN is not the only one.

Kevin




So you're a realized practitioner?
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:41 pm

"In his lifetime Guru Nanak traveled to distant places. One of his journeys took him to Tibet. Guru Nanak is well respected by Tibetan Buddhists who consider him a saint. According to a legend some local people approached the Guru with an appeal for help. A lake remained frozen during most of the year and rendered it incapable as a source of water. Guru Nanak is said to have touched the lake and it has never frozen since. The lake is called Guru Dongmar and is at a height of 18,000 feet. Guru Nanak’s footprints, a robe and a water-carrying utensil are preserved in Lachen Gompha. The following travel account of Major I.S. Issar and Sardar Surinder Singh was published in the Sikh Review, Feb-Mar 1970."

- http://lakhvir.wordpress.com/2006/07/11/guru-nanak-in-tibet-part-i/

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:44 pm

"The Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Buddhists in Tibet, has confirmed it in his discussions with some Sikh leaders and that Tibetans revere Guru Nanak as a Buddhist saint under the name of Guru Gompka Maharaj.

An Indian official who went in late 1950s with our trade mission to Lhasa has brought with him a painting drawn on silk from a Buddhist monastery stated to be of Guru Nanak. The portrait was in the typical dress of the Tibetan saints. During my two years stay in North Bengal and Sikkim, I visited a large number of monasteries and, on making enquiries, I found quite a few lamas mentioning Guru Nanak as a saint of theirs who had gone to Tibet from India..."


http://lakhvir.wordpress.com/2006/07/11/guru-nanak-in-tibet-part-ii/

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:03 am

To virgo:

Sikhism being influenced by Dzogchen...that's questionable, but maybe. As for being based on Dzogchen: Definitely not.

Advaita Vedanta, also uses a lot of similar terminology as Buddhism (such as unborn, undying, freedom from birth and death, etc.,) yet is still based around an eternalist/theistic framework.

Also, it doesn't even take that someone has experiential understanding in order to come to the conclusion that Sikhism is as theistic as any of the other traditions categorized under the umbrella term "Hinduism." Just take a look at any website dedicated to Sikhism; such as this website here http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby tepp01 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:07 am

The Radhasoami Gurus teach meditation on inner light and sound, into which I have also been initiated.

It reminds me a little of the following Dzogchen teaching:
" The third one which is connected to sound is called 'the introduction to the waves of the ocean.' This one, with your fingers you block the ears by pressing on them. First very indistinct and then progressively louder and louder, you hear a hum or humming, that is said to be the nature sound of Dharmata. "

http://www.rinpoche.com/karmechagme/kar ... aching.pdf
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:33 am

The Sikh god sounds a lot like the Dharmakaya.
We might have something here.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Shemmy » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:25 pm

Not being a Dzogchen practitioner yet, though I have done a bit of reading and am vaguely familar. I have done some time with the Sikh dharma in the west and its a pretty interesting idea you're proposing, seems very plausible there has been some cross-pollination. Some odds and ends that occur to me on this:

I am almost certain I have seen a translation from a passage in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib that describes the process of realization in terms of the movement of the energies in the nadis and the central channel. So, it doesn't seem much of a stretch that if that found its way into Sikhism that Dzogchen would.

Yogi Bhajan, while being the rather controversial leader and self appointed head of Sikh dharma in the west, claimed to have recieved teachings from Tibetan gurus, though he would never say from whom specifically. Though, his yoga and meditations called Kundalini Yoga are powerful and effective, so perhaps there was some lineage. I even remember at one of the solstice "White Tantric" retreats he had Tibetan Mandalas sort of positioned around the meditation sala.

The importance of the Guru and the notion of just letting go and leaving things to God rather begging God and praying for this and that. The meditation technique of chanting and then stopping and dissolving all into infinity and meditating on the silence and vastness strikes me as similar to the the formless meditations you get in the inner yogas of Vajrayana.

That you mention Guru Nanak as an emanation of Guru Rinpoche...wow! Somehow that just intuitively strikes me as hitting the nail on the head. Great inspiration for meditation and guru yoga! Thanks!
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Ogyen » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:40 pm

Half my family is Indian (Sikh) and I was exposed to this much before Buddhadharma. When I first encountered Dzogchen a couple years ago, I think via a discussion on E-Sangha, before I ever even took refuge, I remember thinking, this Dzogchen stuff is vaguely reminiscent of Guru Nanak's teachings. Later on, I read he was considered an emanation of Guru Rinpoche as well, and practicing Nyingma, I thought to myself, wouldn't be a karmic stretch for me here, would it? :rolling:

I don't know enough about Dzogchen to comment on the relationship, but at least from personal experience, they smell similar in essence, while the wrapping might be presented very differently. But again, I am very ignorant and could be drawing parallel through my lack of knowledge. It's just curious you created a thread on this, as it's something I've wondered about myself..

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Pero » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:55 pm

Stewart wrote:From 'The glossary of Tibetan terms and names for the Dzogchen community' Dzogchenpa; A realized Dzogchen practitioner.

This may be in the DC glossary but I personally don't agree with this definition at all. A dzogchenpa is someone who practices dzogchen not someone who is realized (and then "realized" would have to be defined as well, otherwise this is completely meaningless).

Illuminator Dictionary wrote:རྫོགས་ཆེན་པ་
Usual abbrev. of rdzogs pa chen po pa "practitioner of rdzogs pa chen po The Great Completion". Someone who follows the rdzogs pa chen po Great Completion system.


Nitartha Dictionary gives the same definition.
That said, I don't know how much benefit there is in proclaiming to be one.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:05 pm

Agree.
Someone realized is called a Buddha. :lol:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:31 pm

Ogyen wrote:Half my family is Indian (Sikh) and I was exposed to this much before Buddhadharma. When I first encountered Dzogchen a couple years ago, I think via a discussion on E-Sangha, before I ever even took refuge, I remember thinking, this Dzogchen stuff is vaguely reminiscent of Guru Nanak's teachings. Later on, I read he was considered an emanation of Guru Rinpoche as well, and practicing Nyingma, I thought to myself, wouldn't be a karmic stretch for me here, would it? :rolling:

I don't know enough about Dzogchen to comment on the relationship, but at least from personal experience, they smell similar in essence, while the wrapping might be presented very differently. But again, I am very ignorant and could be drawing parallel through my lack of knowledge. It's just curious you created a thread on this, as it's something I've wondered about myself..

:namaste:



Tashi delek,

Some friends of mine did practice in the 80ties under the guidance of their Guru Badjan, Kundalini Yoga.

Samkya and Kundalini was that what they always did practice. Over the Ishvara principle is here the goal reached 26th element when i am right informed.It is a little bit similar to the Greece counting system of their enumaration (Pytagoras?). Bliss is acumulated with Kundalini Yoga which could be of Shaivism origin.

So in how far these could be related to Dzogchen i don't know.We have Tsalung trulkor and Vision exercises which is not inside Sikh practice.
How emptiness is seen in the Sikh Tradition that is for me also very unclear, may be you could give a hint?


Best wsihes

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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:25 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Ogyen wrote:Half my family is Indian (Sikh) and I was exposed to this much before Buddhadharma. When I first encountered Dzogchen a couple years ago, I think via a discussion on E-Sangha, before I ever even took refuge, I remember thinking, this Dzogchen stuff is vaguely reminiscent of Guru Nanak's teachings. Later on, I read he was considered an emanation of Guru Rinpoche as well, and practicing Nyingma, I thought to myself, wouldn't be a karmic stretch for me here, would it? :rolling:

I don't know enough about Dzogchen to comment on the relationship, but at least from personal experience, they smell similar in essence, while the wrapping might be presented very differently. But again, I am very ignorant and could be drawing parallel through my lack of knowledge. It's just curious you created a thread on this, as it's something I've wondered about myself..

:namaste:



Tashi delek,

Some friends of mine did practice in the 80ties under the guidance of their Guru Badjan, Kundalini Yoga.

Samkya and Kundalini was that what they always did practice. Over the Ishvara principle is here the goal reached 26th element when i am right informed.It is a little bit similar to the Greece counting system of their enumaration (Pytagoras?). Bliss is acumulated with Kundalini Yoga which could be of Shaivism origin.

So in how far these could be related to Dzogchen i don't know.We have Tsalung trulkor and Vision exercises which is not inside Sikh practice.
How emptiness is seen in the Sikh Tradition that is for me also very unclear, may be you could give a hint?


Best wsihes

Mutsog Marro
KY

I've found this.

his continuity is found in those cases in which sunn or sunya is employed as a symbol of the Absolute. Thus, for example, it is said that when one is awakened to the teaching of the Guru, one merges into the Void (sunn samaia) even while alive—jivat sunni samania gur sakhi jagi (GG, 857). Of course the concept of the Absolute in Sikhism differs from that in the Madhyamika, but there can be no doubt that the Absolute is called sunn because it is devoid of duality and discrimination. This negative structure in speech with regard to the Reality is the basic function of the symbol sunn. All positive descriptions imply limitation and determination. The word sunn declares that the Truth is beyond limitations and determinations. Emptiness of Buddhism means ‘no doctrine about Truth’; sunn in Sikhism means ‘no conception about the Inconceivable.’


An important feature of the conception of the Void in Sikhism is that it can be realized through transcendental devotion (naam) which consists in the constant mindfulness of the Divine (simran). This feature brings in many positive elements as a matter of course and consequently the ecstatic experience of the Divine is characterized by positive attributes. Nevertheless, these positive attributes do not exhaust the innate state of sahaj or the Void (sunn). Kabir uses sunn in the sense of space, finite as well as infinite, i.e. ghatakash and mahakash.


The three lokas enveloping sunya is nothing but Brahman with maya but the fourth sunya about which Guru Nanak stresses more is pure Brahman who is nirakar and nirguna. In Rag Maru, Guru Nanak defines sunn as the creative power of the Almighty—paunu pani sunnai te saje (GG, 1037). The sense of nada has also been exacted from the term sunn in the Sidha Gosti where Guru Nanak says: “nau sar subhar dasavai pure tah anahat sunn vajavahi ture — after filling up the nine pitchers with love, through the tenth gate the entry is made; the anahat sunya in the form of melodies is realized” (GG, 943). The term sunn in the Guru Granth Sahib is thus used in a variety of senses, of which predominantly are Brahman with and without maya, the creation, the power of Brahman and nada.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sunn
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Stewart » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Pero wrote:
Stewart wrote:From 'The glossary of Tibetan terms and names for the Dzogchen community' Dzogchenpa; A realized Dzogchen practitioner.

This may be in the DC glossary but I personally don't agree with this definition at all. A dzogchenpa is someone who practices dzogchen not someone who is realized (and then "realized" would have to be defined as well, otherwise this is completely meaningless).

Illuminator Dictionary wrote:རྫོགས་ཆེན་པ་
Usual abbrev. of rdzogs pa chen po pa "practitioner of rdzogs pa chen po The Great Completion". Someone who follows the rdzogs pa chen po Great Completion system.


Nitartha Dictionary gives the same definition.
That said, I don't know how much benefit there is in proclaiming to be one.


Hey Pero,

I honestly don't mind, I was just teasing Kevin a little, in a friendly way.

It's seems that many people have jumped on this 'I'm not a Buddhist, I'm a Dzogchen practitioner' wagon, Malcolm stated his shift personally and honestly, I appreciated it, it was his experience, and he expressed it..... but everyone has since clambered over each other to redefine themselves accordingly, in a kind of 'that was exactly what I was thinking!' way. Yeah? Then why didn't you say it first then? Some people have come across very badly in this (not you Kevin btw), and all they have actually done is swap one identity for another, and proclaim it 'free from limitations'.

IMO ChNN is amazing, I have had a lot of good personal advice and encouragement from him, and Khyentse Yeshe via email. I am a DC member....before someone says 'burn the heretic!'
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:28 pm

I'm sorry, but my impression is that not many people started seeing themselves as not being Buddhists because of Malcom or after Malcom stated that he didn't considered that so important any longer.
Seems to me that most see still see themselves as Buddhists - my case for instance - but realize that to practice Dzogchen being a Buddhist is not an absolute prerequisite. That cannot also be attributed to Malcom's acknowledgement, but to our own interpretation of ChNN teachings.
I think we should be precise in the things we say, because misinterpretation of people's words has been causing too much stir lately. :lol:
:oops: there I am going off topic again. Sorry folks.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Stewart » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:50 pm

DN dude,

I wasn't as much meaning people were saying they're not Buddhist....although some have and others have implied it in an enigmatic way.

But there was a flood of people, directly after Malcolms post, rushing to agree even though they had 1. Never mentioned these views before and 2. Actually expressed views contrary to this in other threads. I just found it all a bit embarrassing. And not only that some even laughed at and belittled those of the 'lower yana' opinions....it was cringe-worthy. That's mainly why I didn't wade in earlier.

Malcolm's post was brilliant, all the crap that came after it wasn't.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

Postby Virgo » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:02 pm

tepp01 wrote:It reminds me a little of the following Dzogchen teaching:
...

It does.

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