What is your opinion? The nembutsu & following other faiths

[Tree]

I know of a lot of people that live with dual religions. They are neopagan and Buddhist. Pagan & Christian! (I know).

So do you think, someone could practice the nembutsu, be a pure land Buddhist and also be a Wiccan? (for example).

Would there be any problems with this, in terms of your ultimate goal in being incarnated into the Pure land?

[Seishin]

I personally would question anyone who wants to follow two different doctrines at the same time. To me that suggests conflict in ones views that need to be reconciled.

That being said, paganism is very much a personal religion based on beliefs and therefore completely open to personal interpretation. I'm sure one could fit the nembutsu in their pagan practice.

[steveb1]

I think many nembutsu elements already exist in other religions, e.g., Ultimate Reality as Infinite Wisdom and Infinite Compassion; or the idea in Shin of multiple Buddhas in addition to Amida working for sentient beings could be applied - say - to Jesus; Amida has been called both Father and Mother, so by analogy perhaps some other religions whose deities function as "Father" and "Mother" share some elements with Amidism; certainly Amida as Infinite Life and Unimpeded Light find their parallels in some religions which Identify the Ultimate Sacred with "Light" (e.g., God is light in the West, Jesus is the "Light of the World", light figures highly even in Kabbalism).

Things that probably cannot be incorporated are any idea of Amida as a creator-deity; a judge; a covenanter with a particular people; a writer of "revealed scripture"; a Spirit that descends from heaven and creates prophets; an intervener in the material universe/human history.

[plwk]

If I may pose these to the OP..

1. What are the ultimate goals of Buddhism & Wicca? Are they in agreement?
2. How is rebirth viewed in Buddhism (especially in the context and purpose of aspirational birth in Pure Land) & Wicca?
3. What is one's motivation for practising both?
4. Have you ever been married with two wives?

[sinweiy]

Amitabha or Buddha function as a teacher. teacher of father, mother, "gods".

moreover, Buddha never do convert btw. Buddha was not discriminating to race, countries and religions. People of other faith went to ask Buddha, Buddha was always delighted to help. He never tell them to convert. You never see it in the texts/sutras. If they are Brahma religion, they can still have faith in Brahma religion. They just went to Buddha to look for wisdom. Buddha always respect all the many religions in India during that time. He never even criticize them in any way. Rare and understanding was Buddha. Look at Earth store Sutra, Po Luo Men Nui (Brahma girl) was a hindu also, and did not convert even when she attain enlightenment/arhanthood.

And Upali.

Upali was one of the chief followers of the Jain master, Mahavira. Because of his intelligence, Upali often appeared in public debates on behalf of the Jains.

There was one incident where Upali had a debate with the Buddha. At the end of the debate, Upali was so impressed with the Buddha's teachings that he asked to be the Enlightened One's follower. "Venerable Sir, please allow me to be your follower".

To that, the Buddha answered, "Upali, you are at the height of your emotions. Go home and reconsider it carefully before you ask me again".

Upali was extremely impressed, "If it was any other guru, he will parade a banner saying, 'Mahavira's chief lay-disciple has become my follower'. But you, Venerable Sir, you asked me to go home and reconsider. Now, I want to be your follower even more. I will not stand up until you accept me".

Finally, the Buddha agreed to accept Upali, under one condition, "Upali, as a Jain, you have always given alms to Jain monks. When you become my follower, you will CONTINUE to give alms to Jain monks. This is my condition".

Upali agreed to this condition.

[Indrajala]

The decided aim of Wicca largely seems to be worldly benefits gained through magick.

The prescribed aim of Buddhist traditions is liberation from samsara.

The hunter who chases two rabbits catches nothing as they say.

[plwk]

sinwei, giving alms to Jains is not the same as remaining a practising Jain nor does it make one a Jain.
When I was in Sarnath, after I finished my rounds at the Buddhist shrine areas, I visited the Jain temple which is just near by the Dhamekh Stupa and donated to their charity, am I a Jain? I give to non Buddhist charities as well, some are religious organisations who help the marginalised in society but am I their follower? Don't forget this as well...the actual Sutta account of Upali...

http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=90
‘Householder since long your clan has been a welling spring to the nigantas. I think morsel food should be offered to those that come.’ ‘Venerable sir, I am very much pleased with these words of the Blessed One. Householder, since long your clan has been a welling spring to the nigantas. I think morsel food should be offered to them that come’.
‘Venerable sir, I have heard this said about you. Offerings should be given to me only, not to others. Offerings should be, to my disciples not to the disciples of other sects. Offerings made to my disciples are of great fruit, but not the offerings made to others. Here, the Blessed One advises me to make offerings to the nigantas. We would know the time to do it.
Now I take refuge in the Blessed One, the Teaching and the Community of bhikkhus for the third time. May I be remembered as a lay disciple who has taken refuge from today until life lasts.’

Then the householder Upali delighted and pleased hearing the words of the Blessed One got up from his seat, worshipped and circumambulated the Blessed One and went home. He addressed his gate- keeper:
‘Friend, gate -keeper, from today the door is closed to the nigantas and nigantis. It is open to the Blessed One, the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. If any nigantas come, you should tell them: Wait sirs, do not enter. From today the householder Upali has gone to the discipleship of the recluse Gotama. The door is closed to nigantas and nigantis. The door is open to the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples, male and female of the Blessed One. If sirs, you want morsel food stand here. It will be brought here.’The gate-keeper agreed.

And read further from the above link on how Upali dealt with Nigantha Nataputta in one 'showdown'...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five?
He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside [of the Sangha], and gives offerings here first.
Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower."

So is the Buddha contradicting Himself or is it suggesting that one should know and remember what are one's priorities first as a committed lay person rather than getting distracted with what others are doing or not doing?

And this passage from the Medicine Buddha Sutra?

http://www.fodian.net/world/0450.html
"Moreover, Manjusri, there may be good men and women of pure faith who, all their lives, do not worship other gods, but single-mindedly take refuge with the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.
They accept and uphold precepts, such as the five precepts, the ten precepts, the four hundred precepts of a Bodhisattva, the two hundred and fifty precepts of a Bhikshu, or the five hundred precepts of a Bhikshuni.

And btw, how would you know that just because that girl is described as a Brahman that it means she's a 'Hindu'?
That term is mostly just denoting either one of great righteous conduct/purity or one belonging to the highest caste in their society. Not all of them from the highest caste are necessarily followers of the Vedic religion... and one who attains the fruition of Arhatship, who would have already broken all the fetters, can that Arhat still remain a 'Hindu' with their variety of subtle and gross postulations of atman and other incompatible stuff?

[Zenshin 善心]

what's in a person's heart? if his faith helps him to face himself and others with an honest and open heart, to acknowledge his own flaws and forgive others theirs, then I struggle to place a declaration of a given religious/spiritual adherence as more important.

Amida-samma embraces all. Embracing everyone is beyond me. I'm just Jon. He embraces even me.

[sinweiy]

sinwei, giving alms to Jains is not the same as remaining a practising Jain nor does it make one a Jain.
When I was in Sarnath, after I finished my rounds at the Buddhist shrine areas, I visited the Jain temple which is just near by the Dhamekh Stupa and donated to their charity, am I a Jain? I give to non Buddhist charities as well, some are religious organisations who help the marginalised in society but am I their follower? Don't forget this as well...the actual Sutta account of Upali...

http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=90
‘Householder since long your clan has been a welling spring to the nigantas. I think morsel food should be offered to those that come.’ ‘Venerable sir, I am very much pleased with these words of the Blessed One. Householder, since long your clan has been a welling spring to the nigantas. I think morsel food should be offered to them that come’.
‘Venerable sir, I have heard this said about you. Offerings should be given to me only, not to others. Offerings should be, to my disciples not to the disciples of other sects. Offerings made to my disciples are of great fruit, but not the offerings made to others. Here, the Blessed One advises me to make offerings to the nigantas. We would know the time to do it.
Now I take refuge in the Blessed One, the Teaching and the Community of bhikkhus for the third time. May I be remembered as a lay disciple who has taken refuge from today until life lasts.’

Then the householder Upali delighted and pleased hearing the words of the Blessed One got up from his seat, worshipped and circumambulated the Blessed One and went home. He addressed his gate- keeper:
‘Friend, gate -keeper, from today the door is closed to the nigantas and nigantis. It is open to the Blessed One, the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male and female. If any nigantas come, you should tell them: Wait sirs, do not enter. From today the householder Upali has gone to the discipleship of the recluse Gotama. The door is closed to nigantas and nigantis. The door is open to the bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples, male and female of the Blessed One. If sirs, you want morsel food stand here. It will be brought here.’The gate-keeper agreed.

And read further from the above link on how Upali dealt with Nigantha Nataputta in one 'showdown'...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five?
He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside [of the Sangha], and gives offerings here first.
Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower."

So is the Buddha contradicting Himself or is it suggesting that one should know and remember what are one's priorities first as a committed lay person rather than getting distracted with what others are doing or not doing?

And this passage from the Medicine Buddha Sutra?

http://www.fodian.net/world/0450.html
"Moreover, Manjusri, there may be good men and women of pure faith who, all their lives, do not worship other gods, but single-mindedly take refuge with the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha.
They accept and uphold precepts, such as the five precepts, the ten precepts, the four hundred precepts of a Bodhisattva, the two hundred and fifty precepts of a Bhikshu, or the five hundred precepts of a Bhikshuni.

And btw, how would you know that just because that girl is described as a Brahman that it means she's a 'Hindu'?
That term is mostly just denoting either one of great righteous conduct/purity or one belonging to the highest caste in their society. Not all of them from the highest caste are necessarily followers of the Vedic religion... and one who attains the fruition of Arhatship, who would have already broken all the fetters, can that Arhat still remain a 'Hindu' with their variety of subtle and gross postulations of atman and other incompatible stuff?

plwk, u do have a point.
yes, even if u give to non "Buddhist" , u are still a "Buddhist", not by name from the outside, but from inside, a follower of Buddha.
"Jain", 'Hindu', Brahman are just external name, what matter most is the substance. i perfer a real follower instead of mere naming.
Brahman could be more like chinese, malay, indian. even thought they are different in skin color, but if they practice the right buddhism, they are real buddha's follower. but it does not change their skin color. what Buddha did was also adapted Hinduism terms (like karma) and "corrected" it into a more toward the meaning of ulimated truth.
the idea i am saying is that Buddha never force people to follow him by force, but by compassion and wisdom. same goes with HHDL in the following link about Christianity and Buddhism.
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes2.html

Q: Do you think it is possible to be both Christian and Buddhist at the same time?
A: I ... [previoiusly--see later] replied to this question indirectly when I said that belief in a Creator could be associated with the understanding of emptiness. I believe it is possible to progress along a spiritual path and reconcile Christianity with Buddhism. But once a certain degree of realization has been reached, a choice between the two paths will become necessary. I recently gave a series of teachings in the United States and one of these teachings was about patience and tolerance. At the end there was a ceremony for taking the Bodhisattva Vows. A Christian priest who was in the audience wanted to take these vows. I asked him if he had the right to, and he replied that yes, of course, he could take these vows and still remain a Christian.

i also saw this
Diamond Sutra talk by Venerable Hyon Gak Sunim (seated beside Zen Master Seung Sahn, his master)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_f9864b ... ed&search=
it was touching to see a muslim going to listen to him and seek enlightenment. what Venerable Hyon Gak Sunim did was simply hitting the table and the muslim just broke into tears!

i think what matter most is real substance.
"Those who teach a Dhamma for the abandoning of passion, for the abandoning of aversion, for the abandoning of delusion — their Dhamma is well-taught." ---AN 3.72 - Ajivaka Sutta

that said, i would say, the "Dharma" does not belong to Buddha Shakyamuni, it belongs to Buddhas.

[safron]

I use to practice witchcraft before I practiced Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism. Have never regretted leaving witchcraft.

[Nighthawk]

Do what your heart tells you to do.

[plwk]

http://www.drba.org/dharma/amitabhasutra.asp
Shariputra, if there is a good man or good woman who hears of Amitabha and holds his name whether for one day, two days, three, four, five days, six days, as long as seven days with one mind unconfused, when this person nears the end of life, before him will appear Amitabha and all the Assembly of Holy Ones.
When the end comes, his mind will not be utterly confused, and in Amitabha's Land of Utmost Happiness he will quickly be reborn. Shariputra, because I see this benefit, I speak these words; and, if living beings hear this teaching they should make the vow: I wish to born in that Land.

[sinweiy]

...witchcraft.

in Buddhism spiritual powers are no match for law of karma. a disciple of Buddha foremost in spiritual power also have to succumb to karma.

i also noted that there are previous maras being converted to Buddha's followers.
This is how great Buddha was.
They took oathed to help Buddha protect the Dharma. If in the Future buddhists who recite the sutras and are bother by anyone or spirits, they oathed to chase them away. if not their heads will break/crack into 7 pieces. Maras are very afraid of swearing. But now they swear to Buddha. Look how great was Buddha.

[Nosta]

Sinwei, regarding the opinion of Buddha about other religious practices, i think i read in some sutra that Buddha would see Dharma as the ultimate path. I said something like this: "You can follow other paths, but none will lead to the end of suffering, only Dharma practice will." Not these words but similar. So, he respected other religious practices but he would not see them as the real spiritual liberation.

[Konchog1]

The hunter who chases two rabbits catches nothing as they say.

I was going to say that myself. Cheers!

[sinweiy]

follow the Four Dharma Seals.

Those schools of Buddhism based on the Buddha's teachings accept the Four Seals of Dharma as the distinction between true Buddhism and "sorta looks like Buddhism." Further, a teaching that contradicts any of the Four Seals is not a true Buddhist teaching.

The Four Seals are:
1.All compounded things are impermanent.
2.All stained emotions are painful.
3.All phenomena are empty.
4.Nirvana is peace.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddh ... rseals.htm

This Is Buddhism

The Four Seals reveal what is unique about Buddhism among all the world's religions. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said, "Whoever holds these four [seals], in their heart, or in their head, and contemplates them, is a Buddhist."

[Osho]

Maybe in some of the more passive meditative or solitary paths but chanting and busier sangha activities aspects of most Pure Land groups do take time so how would find the time to follow another faith as well?
Doing something properly requires focus.