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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:06 am 
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Ogyen wrote:
Wonderful! Thank you for this tip! I have full confidence that Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche has absolutely valid reasons for requesting we take the Ngondro empowerment as a basic in the preliminaries. But he never has discouraged me from finding ANY other teachers.


Lama Dawa is great. He may not advertise that he is teaching Dzogchen, but I am sure if you spend time with him and attend teachings he will be teaching and transmitting it. For example, as I said: request a teaching from him on the Guru Yoga meditation aspect of the ngondro, and you will get a Dzogchen teaching. No doubt, really.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:11 pm 
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haha as a fan of ghee i was very exited when came across info that Lama Dawa Rinpoche will be giving teaching on Clarified Butter and then dissapointed when found out it was actually teachings on Dzogchen text called "Clarfied Butter"

btw from Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche's schedule from 2009,2008:

Feb. 13 - 23, 2009 Sonoma, California

Introduction to the Dzogchen View, Meditation and Action

Teachings on 'The Three Essential Points' of Garab Dorje

Teachings on the outer, inner and secret levels of the 7-Line Prayer

April 30 - May 24 2009, Fleischmans, NY

The Outer, Inner and Secret meaning of the Seven Line Prayer of Guru Rinpoche

February 2998, San Diego, CA

The Nature of the Mind

February 15 - 18 2008, Sacramento, CA

Dzogchen teachings

Shamatha-Vipasyana Meditation from the Dzogchen perspective

February 22 - 25 2008, Sonoma, CA

Dzogchen teaching 'Clarifying Butter'

http://www.lamadawa.com/2009-teachings.html

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Seems a very interesting teaching! But perhaps placing under events would be more adequate?
The topic is "Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations". Not who teaches or not Dzogchen openly or otherwise.
As interesting as some may find that discussion, let's try to stay on topic.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Dechen,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the poster was not "advertising" an event but was giving examples of Lama Dawa's specifically Dzogchen teachings as a follow-up to the previous discussions in this thread. So it seems to me completely apropos to this thread. But that's just my two cents. :namaste:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Indeed. What you say is correct.
The thing is that the previous discussion was already off topic.

Dzogchen is beyond limitations whether it is taught openly or to a more selected audience. This is something for each Dzogchen teacher to decide. I don't assume teachers who give Dzogchen to smaller groups are teaching some form of limited Dzogchen, as that wouldn't be Dzogchen. The same for those who teach it to bigger audiences. I'm sure you agree, no?

Why this subject (different styles of teaching Dzogchen) must infect all topics in the Dzogchen forum is beyond my understanding. It has nothing to do with this topic, however.
If people have comments to make on how Dzogchen is beyond limitations, or believe otherwise, or want to share their insights and experiences, that is the subject of the topic. It was going well until a few posts back.

Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:41 pm 
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I can't quite see that what someone taught several years ago is on-topic, unless to prove that he teaches Dozgchen, which is hardly 'free from limitations' when it seems limited by being a schedule which is years old. His present schedule is here: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=6878 .

There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

The other debate about Ngondro may also be defining a limitation. However, I didn't see clarity in defining whether, for example, a Nyingma Lama was recommending Ngondro connected with Vajrayana practice, rather than insisting it was a preprequisite of the Guru giving a person Dzogchen DI . The latter, asking a person to wait to have revealed to them what they already innately possess, and for which they must therefore be a suitable vessel, seems a logical absurdity.

So my 2 cents is that there are limitations due to the ability of the Guru to give DI and the requirement of Ngondro some may place as a precursor to it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

Yes, as well as the willingness and receptivity of the student, i.e. devotion to the guru and the acceptance of the teaching. This narrows the field of potential candidates for dzogchen instruction. Also, it seems that one has to have functioning eyesight (or hearing) in order to engage in tögal practice. These are reasons why anyone who has received the bodhisattva vow can't really limit themselves to dzogchen. In this respect, the exoteric Buddhadharma is far more important than dzogchen for making liberation available to sentient beings.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:41 am 
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I remember well her shock, as Gangteng Tulku advised a student (sorry if you've heard this story before) whose mother was always quite distressed every Sunday during their visits because the student would not attend church service with her. "Just go to church! Pray." He pointed out that within the dzogchen view every teaching is remedial, and therefor flawed. It's all about "in accordance with the needs of beings." It always has been. Just that within Dzogchen there's infinite opportunity to express it.
"Free from limitations" as Malcolm mentioned.

Dra Thalgyur:
"Out of all of these different beliefs
There are countless assertions,
because dzogchen manifests in every possible way.
Still, the actual view of the true state
is free from any one of them."


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:09 am 
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Thanks for sharing. Very cool story! :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:19 am 
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Mod note:

Some posts moved here:


viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052&start=1760

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:23 am 
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Huseng,

Why did you move Yontan's post which covered the topic called "Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations" to Dzogchen Community thread?

It was on topic for this thread, no?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:31 am 
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Hrrmmmm.
Especially odd since I've never met CNNR....


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:50 am 
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Jnana wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

Yes, as well as the willingness and receptivity of the student, i.e. devotion to the guru and the acceptance of the teaching. This narrows the field of potential candidates for dzogchen instruction. Also, it seems that one has to have functioning eyesight (or hearing) in order to engage in tögal practice. These are reasons why anyone who has received the bodhisattva vow can't really limit themselves to dzogchen. In this respect, the exoteric Buddhadharma is far more important than dzogchen for making liberation available to sentient beings.

Are all practices in Dzogchen actually REQUIRED? I can see guru yoga being indispensible, but something like skygazing in thogal? I didn't think it really worked that way.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:30 am 
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Togal is not required. It's a practice from Menagde section, that you don't have to follow. You can do semde meditations or longde.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:35 am 
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tomamundsen wrote:
Are all practices in Dzogchen actually REQUIRED? I can see guru yoga being indispensible, but something like skygazing in thogal? I didn't think it really worked that way.

Well, like all practices, it depends on one's teacher and the dzogchen cycle that one is practicing. But more to the point, there are many human beings who have no interest in dzogchen. And among this group there are people who have either been conditioned by secular humanism or have lost faith in the religion of their childhood for any number of reasons. In these cases mainstream Nikāya Buddhism has an advantage for turning the mind towards the dharma in that these teachings are more accessible via step-by-step investigation and analysis.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:37 am 
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Jnana wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Are all practices in Dzogchen actually REQUIRED? I can see guru yoga being indispensible, but something like skygazing in thogal? I didn't think it really worked that way.

Well, like all practices, it depends on one's teacher and the dzogchen cycle that one is practicing. But more to the point, there are many human beings who have no interest in dzogchen. And among this group there are people who have either been conditioned by secular humanism or have lost faith in the religion of their childhood for any number of reasons. In these cases mainstream Nikāya Buddhism has an advantage for turning the mind towards the dharma in that these teachings are more accessible via step-by-step investigation and analysis.


Doubtless true; but it does need to be said that a background and roots in mainstream Nikaaya Buddhism (I prefer the Buddha's own term, Dhamma-Vinaya) is an excellent basis for Dzogchen. As far as I can see, nothing in Dzogchen teaching precludes that, notwithstanding the "Hinayana" label and the apparent tendency to see the Bhikkhu (and Bhikkhuni of the distant past and present) Sangha and the Vinaya as what it is all about. This is another sense in which Dzogchen teaching is free from limitations. Sometimes, the step-by-step investigation and analysis leads to the path of Dzogchen somewhere down the line; and it would surprise me if there were not everal teachers of Samatha-Vipassana in the West, at least, who work with Samatha-Vipassana and also work with Dzogchen practice, receiving introduction and transmission from Dzogchen teachers and attending Dzogchen retreats from time to time. The monasteries of the East may be a different question: but years ago I was told en passant by one of the early English students of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in his Oxford days, Michael Hookham, that the late Luang Por Pa~n~navaddho, who was deputy head of the late Luang Por Maha Boowa's forest monastery, Wat Pah Barn Tahd, with whom Mike had practiced in England before Mike met Trungpa, and with whom Mike retained contact, sending him literature, had had an interest in Trungpa's Maha-Ati teachings, as well as finding the Ch'an Hua-Tou method of the late Hsu Yun fruitful in practice. Information like this, about someone deeply steeped in the Thai Forest Tradition within the framework of the Dhamma-Vinaya, and who is reputed to have achieved the goal of practice, makes me wonder whether cross-fertilisation might not be more widespread than we imagine, albeit perhaps not blindingly obvious, in forest retreats and the like. Perhaps there are practitioners out there, whether lay-persons or monastics whose lives and practice is rooted in the Dhamma-Nikaya, whose practice is also quietly influenced by Dzogchen, living examples of the freedom of Dzogchen from conventional limitations. This is just speculation; but it is intriguing. Someone like Andre, who has strong links with practitioners in the Thai Forest tradition, may be able to shed more light on this.

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kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:00 am 
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Sally Gross wrote:
Doubtless true; but it does need to be said that a background and roots in mainstream Nikaaya Buddhism (I prefer the Buddha's own term, Dhamma-Vinaya) is an excellent basis for Dzogchen. As far as I can see, nothing in Dzogchen teaching precludes that...

Of course.

Sally Gross wrote:
Sometimes, the step-by-step investigation and analysis leads to the path of Dzogchen somewhere down the line...

Yes, this certainly can and does happen. And it can also happen that dzogchen can lead to greater appreciation of the utility of other practices as well.

Sally Gross wrote:
...and it would surprise me if there were not everal teachers of Samatha-Vipassana in the West, at least, who work with Samatha-Vipassana and also work with Dzogchen practice, receiving introduction and transmission from Dzogchen teachers and attending Dzogchen retreats from time to time.

It's a pluralistic world, and this does happen also; as well as working with other Mahāyāna & Vajrayāna practices.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:03 am 
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tomamundsen wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

Yes, as well as the willingness and receptivity of the student, i.e. devotion to the guru and the acceptance of the teaching. This narrows the field of potential candidates for dzogchen instruction. Also, it seems that one has to have functioning eyesight (or hearing) in order to engage in tögal practice. These are reasons why anyone who has received the bodhisattva vow can't really limit themselves to dzogchen. In this respect, the exoteric Buddhadharma is far more important than dzogchen for making liberation available to sentient beings.

Are all practices in Dzogchen actually REQUIRED? I can see guru yoga being indispensible, but something like skygazing in thogal? I didn't think it really worked that way.


On the account given by ChNNR, Ati Guruyoga is required: it is the core, the heart-essence. Everything else is secondary, there to be used on the basis of the specific circumstances in which one finds oneself or, there being no limitations, simply because one wants to do them. That is not to say that secondary practices are not likely to be useful -- they seem to be regarded as a toolbox from which one is encouraged to find tools which will be helpful in one's particular circumstances.There are a good number of secondary practices which might otherwise have been helpful which are closed to me because of physical constraints. Thankfully, those involving sight are still possible; but some years down the line, if my body lasts that long, who knows? This is an impediment to making full use of the toolkit, to be sure; but it does not impede Dzogchen practice as such and places no limitation on the ability to experience Dzogchen.

It should be noted that physical constraints can limit one's ability to do certain practices which loom large in the exoteric Buddha-dharma -- classical sitting practice, for example, and certain forms of mindfulness of the body such as walking meditation, which are immensely valuable. This can pose considerable difficulties, though there are other practices and the difficulty is therefore not insuperable. Such physical constraints in the context of exoteric Buddhism do not rule out practices which get to the heart-core, though they probably make the lives of practitioners more difficult than they would have been otherwise. Instead, one might do practices which use the capacities of the mind more and get around bodily constraints, or to use the bodily constraints themselves as subjects of contemplation which foster insight into the three characteristics. Is Dzogchen practice radically different in this regard? As long as you are not comatose, the core-practice is do-able.

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:08 am 
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Jnana wrote:
Sally Gross wrote:
Sometimes, the step-by-step investigation and analysis leads to the path of Dzogchen somewhere down the line...

Yes, this certainly can and does happen. And it can also happen that dzogchen can lead to greater appreciation of the utility of other practices as well.


Indeed; and this is surely as should be. It's implied by Dzogchen's freedom from limitations and the encouragement that teachers like ChNNR give to integrate as part of one's practice.

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:39 am 
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quote="Sally Gross"]
tomamundsen wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:
There is a very important limitation to Dzogchen Teaching - the ability of the Guru to give Direct Introduction.

Yes, as well as the willingness and receptivity of the student, i.e. devotion to the guru and the acceptance of the teaching. This narrows the field of potential candidates for dzogchen instruction. Also, it seems that one has to have functioning eyesight (or hearing) in order to engage in tögal practice. These are reasons why anyone who has received the bodhisattva vow can't really limit themselves to dzogchen. In this respect, the exoteric Buddhadharma is far more important than dzogchen for making liberation available to sentient beings.

Are all practices in Dzogchen actually REQUIRED? I can see guru yoga being indispensible, but something like skygazing in thogal? I didn't think it really worked that way.


On the account given by ChNNR, Ati Guruyoga is required: it is the core, the heart-essence. Everything else is secondary, there to be used on the basis of the specific circumstances in which one finds oneself or, there being no limitations, simply because one wants to do them. That is not to say that secondary practices are not likely to be useful -- they seem to be regarded as a toolbox from which one is encouraged to find tools which will be helpful in one's particular circumstances.There are a good number of secondary practices which might otherwise have been helpful which are closed to me because of physical constraints. Thankfully, those involving sight are still possible; but some years down the line, if my body lasts that long, who knows? This is an impediment to making full use of the toolkit, to be sure; but it does not impede Dzogchen practice as such and places no limitation on the ability to experience Dzogchen.

It should be noted that physical constraints can limit one's ability to do certain practices which loom large in the exoteric Buddha-dharma -- classical sitting practice, for example, and certain forms of mindfulness of the body such as walking meditation, which are immensely valuable. This can pose considerable difficulties, though there are other practices and the difficulty is therefore not insuperable. Such physical constraints in the context of exoteric Buddhism do not rule out practices which get to the heart-core, though they probably make the lives of practitioners more difficult than they would have been otherwise. Instead, one might do practices which use the capacities of the mind more and get around bodily constraints, or to use the bodily constraints themselves as subjects of contemplation which foster insight into the three characteristics. Is Dzogchen practice radically different in this regard? As long as you are not comatose, the core-practice is do-able.[/quote]

Tashi delek,

Your reply does indicate some physical constraints.

But if one has understood the preliminary philosophy of Citta matra, here is everything " mind only ", to a certain degree of course.

Preliminaries like prosternations can be done with mind, also the welcoming of the Master can be done in mind, one does not need to be in front of the Master and do prosternations in front of him, that can also done with the Mind.

So if all is done with compassion and with the Mind of Wisdom, there are nearly no restrictions.

Restrictions are there if Dzogchen is thought about with the thinking mind, that is anyway no Dzogchen approach.

Further wouldn' t no Dzogchen Master, like in your case, urge you to do prosternations, that is very clear.
But i agree there are some fanatics who will recommend that in all circumstances, but that is not what we want, isn' t it? That Master shoud not be followed that is clear, because here is no insight and compassion possible. Only a blindfolded following of instructions.

But your exceptions are not counting for everybody that is also very clear.Here one can see that Dzogchen has also compassion and insight, without compassion + Wisdom, Dzogchen would be incomplete.

So again i don' t see here no reasons to shoot down secondary methods, sure in case when thoughts can be very strong earthed.

I do understand that you are in a hurry, so i hope that there is very soon result for you, the cause is clear here.

Best wishes and success
in searching / quest for the real Master on your path.
May that result in quick Realisations
because time is running out.


Mutsog Marro
KY

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