Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

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Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:07 pm

    The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 123-124). Kindle Edition.

    Dzogchen is not a school or sect, or a religious system. It is simply a state of knowledge which masters have transmitted beyond any limits of sect or monastic tradition.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 171-172). Kindle Edition.

    A monk, without giving up his vows, can perfectly well practice Dzogchen, as can a Catholic priest, a clerk, a workman, and so on, without having to abandon their role in society, because Dzogchen does not change people from the outside.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 183-184). Kindle Edition.

    Every religion, every spiritual teaching, has its basic philosophical principles, its characteristic way of seeing things. Within the philosophy of Buddhism alone, for example, there have arisen different systems and traditions, often disagreeing with each other only over subtleties of interpretation of the fundamental principles. In Tibet these philosophical controversies have lasted up until the present day, and the resulting polemical writings now form a whole body of literature in itself. But in Dzogchen no importance at all is attached to philosophical opinions and convictions. The way of seeing in Dzogchen is not based on intellectual knowledge, but on an awareness of the individual's own true condition.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 185-189). Kindle Edition.

    All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 193-195). Kindle Edition.

    For example, those who already have a certain familiarity with Tibetan culture might think that to practice Dzogchen you have to convert to either Buddhism or Bon, because Dzogchen has been spread through these two religious traditions. This shows how limited our way of thinking is.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State (Kindle Locations 161-163). Kindle Edition.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition,
So even if you understand, you still need a dzogchen master (living), to bless you with his realization, before your understanding is authentic ?
:namaste:


,
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sönam » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:18 pm

Autonomy is an important feature ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:28 pm

Sönam wrote:Autonomy is an important feature ...

Sönam
Yes. Without that my reD flags pop up. But I also know there are others more experienceD anD knowleDgeable than me,
anD that's where faith comes in. Trusting these Masters with our heart.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:29 pm

In the retreat that just ended he said, "limitation is the root of all problems."
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Re: dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:33 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition,
So even if you understand, you still need a dzogchen master (living), to bless you with his realization, before your understanding is authentic ?


Transmission itself is the only blessing you need.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:06 am

Malcolm wrote:Transmission itself is the only blessing you need.
Is reading The Precious Treasury... By Longchenpa a transmission ? Or only When you listen to ChNN via Webcast/or live ? :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:17 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Transmission itself is the only blessing you need.
Is reading The Precious Treasury... By Longchenpa a transmission ? Or only When you listen to ChNN via Webcast/or live ? :namaste:



Reading a book is not transmission.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:39 am

Ok. When I was watching my teacher washing dishes one day, what looked ordinary, astounded me. Was that a transmission ? Can I say what occured or should I PM you ? Ok,
I found this, which sort of answers my questioning/confusion : http://www.dzogchen.it/dzogchen/direct-transmission
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Ogyen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:17 pm

The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.

I always thought Dzogchen was way far off and out of reach being a very beginning Nyingmapa student who took refuge with Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche in Gyatrul Rinpoche's at Yeshe Nyingpo sangha down here where I live.

Great thread. Lots to think about - or rather... unthink.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sally Gross » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Ogyen wrote:The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.


Ogyen, you speak my mind. I'm also relatively new to this teaching -- a matter of some months in my case -- and like you my sense has been of happening upon what I have been seeking for the whole of my life. Welcome, and enjoy the journey! :namaste:
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Ogyen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:15 am

Sally Gross wrote:
Ogyen wrote:The Self-Perfected State sounds like what I've been seeking my whole life in terms of dharma methods... feels like a profound door of change just creaked opened since discovering this (two weeks ago), I'm slowly coming around to probing it (cautious by nurture) just reading a lot about ChNNR right now.

This teacher blasts open the doors to something profound and universal for everyone. If you are willing to put in the effort to be the Buddha, it seems.


Ogyen, you speak my mind. I'm also relatively new to this teaching -- a matter of some months in my case -- and like you my sense has been of happening upon what I have been seeking for the whole of my life. Welcome, and enjoy the journey! :namaste:


I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.

I have no intention of not doing Ngondro, hopefully in November when my teacher visits I can get the empowerment to start it... the sangha down here is great, they told me that even though I'll have just delivered my second baby by a couple weeks, I can show up with my newborn and toddler to meet our visiting teacher. It was so reassuring to know it's never too early to be exposed to dharma or a good teacher... These kids are raised with the dharma at home.

But meeting paths with ChNNR even if 'indirectly' and seeing this possibility for limitless inner reach... at least learning some of the material practice is ... illuminating, to say the least. Like my mental sky just got bigger somehow... Thanks for creating this thread, btw. I think this will be of much benefit to many of us. Much appreciated.

Is there a beginner's thread? I read through a lot of interesting threads, looks like we have resources, and scattered topics... I was looking around, saw something mentioned about a sticky... did I miss it?

:namaste:
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:38 am

Ogyen wrote:
I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.


This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. Lama Tharchin also teaches Dzogchen frequently, and openly, although I believe he also emphasizes ngondro as a practice to not avoid. If you read Thinley Norbu's "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" and specifically the chapter on Guru Yoga you will see why the Guru Yoga of the Dudjom ngondro is a very profound Dzogchen practice in and of itself. If your teacher's are not explicitly teaching you Dzogchen™, then ask them to teach on Guru Yoga. You will be receiving Dzogchen teachings, it is inevitable.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:02 am

Your experience is rather common Ogyen. Sadly.
And that's what matters in the end: your experience, not what others tell it should be or what theoretically should be or any other mental construction, but what it really is. Let not anyobody convince you of the contrary, because it's your life, your experience, your right to evaluate.

I've been there and know exactly what you are talking about. I'm glad you found this thread useful and illuminating.
That's exactly its purpose. Never lose your freedom and sense of spaciousness.

Whatever path you decide to take, whatever practices you decide to do, I wish you the very best. :anjali:
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:20 am

Adamantine wrote:
Ogyen wrote:
I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' I thought, fair enough, I'm a beginner at best, have refuge vows and make my daily life the practice of kindness... but overall, the message I got from Dzogchen was "NOT for ME.... yet." So I steered clear out of the big kids' club. In the dharma practice, I'm just a kid. I look at our teachers and go, yeah... right. I have a LONG way to go.


This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. Lama Tharchin also teaches Dzogchen frequently, and openly, although I believe he also emphasizes ngondro as a practice to not avoid. If you read Thinley Norbu's "A Cascading Waterfall of Nectar" and specifically the chapter on Guru Yoga you will see why the Guru Yoga of the Dudjom ngondro is a very profound Dzogchen practice in and of itself. If your teacher's are not explicitly teaching you Dzogchen™, then ask them to teach on Guru Yoga. You will be receiving Dzogchen teachings, it is inevitable.


ChNN says that if you don't understand the sense of the teaching there is no way you can get it ... that the teacher speaks, he speaks a lot, but if you don't understand what that is all about you miss the sense of the teaching ..."
Therefore, this or this teacher, ngondrö or not ngondrö, so and so, if you don't understand the sense of the teaching there is no way you can get it ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:48 am

Malcolm wrote:The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

Yes this is really the case. One's true condition is not about being present mindfully, becoming something, or struggling to overlay experience with meaning. It's the simple fact of the presence. I can't see any other way to describe it. Just the fact of the presence. And in that simple fact of presence there are no limitations. Everything is included in the fact of presence - my beating heart for example.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:56 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Dzogchen teachings are neither a philosophy, nor a religious doctrine, nor a cultural tradition. Understanding the message of the teachings means discovering one's own true condition, stripped of all the self-deceptions and falsifications which the mind creates.

Yes this is really the case. One's true condition is not about being present mindfully, becoming something, or struggling to overlay experience with meaning. It's the simple fact of the presence. I can't see any other way to describe it. Just the fact of the presence. And in that simple fact of presence there are no limitations. Everything is included in the fact of presence - my beating heart for example.

Amen.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:22 am

Adamantine wrote:
Ogyen wrote:
I've been a Dzogchen lurker for a bit, it IS in Dudjom's lineage I practice out of... but never felt I was advanced enough as a student to be able to access the teachings, because it's 'for the big kids.' I've heard several times, 'when you've done Ngondro,' or Dzogchen is 'the highest level.' *snip* I have a LONG way to go.


This is not really the tradition of Dudjom's lineage, not how I was introduced to it or understand it. Dudjom Rinpoche gave direct introduction constantly, he was a living, breathing direct introduction. Also, my root teacher is like this, and is a Dudjom Lama through and through. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche always taught Dzogchen, but emphasized ngondro as a formal method to relate to that (being a guru yoga practice), as does Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche --both Dudjom Rinpoche's sons. *snip*


Hi again Ogyen, I just wanted to reply again, and say that I apologize for anyone speaking about my post making claims that it was "damage control" etc. This is sadly misguided, and just reflective of the odd polarizing nature of a particular trend happening on the forum right now for whatever reason. I wanted to share an example of what I am talking about, something that just popped into my email box. These are public, unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen View, Meditation and Action
with the lineage holder of the Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom Rinpoche's son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche:

Teachings on the Nature of Mind at Orgyen Cho Dzong

Friday, July 27 from 5-7 pm,
Saturday, July 28 & Sunday, July 29, 10-12 & 2-4


Appropriate for all those interested in Buddhism, this seminar introduces three basic tenets of all Buddhist practice: view which is the perspective for re-understanding our experiences, meditation which is the path, and action which is the result of the previous two.


Simlarly, I personally attended a public unrestricted teaching on Dzogchen meditation with Lama Tharchin using this text by Dudjom Rinpoche as a basis
http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/dudjom_counsel.htm in Los Angeles in 2009

I have been to countless unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen including pointing out with various Dudjom Lamas over the course of many years. Despite what some may claim, this is the very heart of the lineage and is commonly presented from the very beginning, to the fortunate who have the attraction and without any requirements or restrictions. But as the Tibetan saying goes "each Lama has their own Dharma". And so, even in the same lineage, various Lamas may embrace different approaches. Perhaps your Lama has a good reason to do things they way they do. But I am sure they would not discourage you from attending Dzogchen teachings with another Lama who is properly qualified.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Ogyen » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:13 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Your experience is rather common Ogyen. Sadly.
And that's what matters in the end: your experience, not what others tell it should be or what theoretically should be or any other mental construction, but what it really is. Let not anyobody convince you of the contrary, because it's your life, your experience, your right to evaluate.

I've been there and know exactly what you are talking about. I'm glad you found this thread useful and illuminating.
That's exactly its purpose. Never lose your freedom and sense of spaciousness.

Whatever path you decide to take, whatever practices you decide to do, I wish you the very best. :anjali:


DN - thank you for the words of encouragement. I think it's ok if my experience is rather common. Samsara is rather common. :tongue: I discovered a long time ago I can be a tenacious cookie, for the good and (tsk tsk) the not so good. I AM learning to weaken the negative clinging, but I find the quality of my inner tenacity is invaluable in pursuing happiness and the natural state of being. I obstinately let things go. :rolling:

I am blessed with very good companions along the way - virtual and IRL. I appreciate your consistent intention to make things clearer and more accessible to everyone. It's a good lead by example. I've learned a lot from your style this way over the past few years. I intend to keep the sky open, the way it was meant to be.

:cheers:
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"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Ogyen » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:20 am

Adamantine wrote:Hi again Ogyen, I just wanted to reply again, and say that I apologize for anyone speaking about my post making claims that it was "damage control" etc. This is sadly misguided, and just reflective of the odd polarizing nature of a particular trend happening on the forum right now for whatever reason. I wanted to share an example of what I am talking about, something that just popped into my email box. These are public, unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen View, Meditation and Action with the lineage holder of the Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom Rinpoche's son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche:

Teachings on the Nature of Mind at Orgyen Cho Dzong

Friday, July 27 from 5-7 pm,
Saturday, July 28 & Sunday, July 29, 10-12 & 2-4


Appropriate for all those interested in Buddhism, this seminar introduces three basic tenets of all Buddhist practice: view which is the perspective for re-understanding our experiences, meditation which is the path, and action which is the result of the previous two.


Simlarly, I personally attended a public unrestricted teaching on Dzogchen meditation with Lama Tharchin using this text by Dudjom Rinpoche as a basis
http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/dudjom_counsel.htm in Los Angeles in 2009

I have been to countless unrestricted teachings on Dzogchen including pointing out with various Dudjom Lamas over the course of many years. Despite what some may claim, this is the very heart of the lineage and is commonly presented from the very beginning, to the fortunate who have the attraction and without any requirements or restrictions. But as the Tibetan saying goes "each Lama has their own Dharma". And so, even in the same lineage, various Lamas may embrace different approaches. Perhaps your Lama has a good reason to do things they way they do. But I am sure they would not discourage you from attending Dzogchen teachings with another Lama who is properly qualified.


Wonderful! Thank you for this tip! I have full confidence that Lama Dawa Chhodak Rinpoche has absolutely valid reasons for requesting we take the Ngondro empowerment as a basic in the preliminaries. But he never has discouraged me from finding ANY other teachers. I think he is wise in his method, and you know how it is when you click well with a teacher, birds of a feather flock karmically together for a reason. So at least in this sense, I just trust him.

I'm not sure why the issue is polarizing, but I keep getting the feeling about the 5 blind men and the elephant. There's one elephant, who cares what differences we experience in our path wherever we are... however, I'm quite ignorant and known to sometimes brush with too wide of a broadstroke...

:namaste:
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Mud to Lotus

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy
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