Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:06 pm

dechen norbu-la...

i've tried starting a new topic for some days now and the interface will not allow me. i presume that functionality of my subscription to DW is not activated.

-xy

Dechen Norbu wrote:
xylem wrote:my crap

This is not the place for that discussion.
You can, however, explain your theory in its proper topic.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:17 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Of course Adamatine rushed to do damage control, explaining his own version of how things are and what she should do.
That is just ridiculous DN. I was trying to assist someone in understanding the context of a lineage she is already connected to. This is trying to be helpful. Maybe her Lama has reasons for not introducing her to Dzogchen, but this is not the general approach of the Dudjom lineage. Saying so is not "damage control" it is simple reality.
But what you guys tell me has nothing to do with what I always have seen in the real world when the traditional tantric approach is used.
I don't have much faith in how elaborate your experience is, Dechen.. Portugal is not exactly a super highway for Dharma teachers.
I haven't see it all and I don't assume to, but your version sounds a little more like "romanticized version" built to dismiss experiences similar to that of Ogyen and for the sake of this discussion.
Right, because the experiences of many people here whom have been practicing for many years do not match your own limited experience, then we must be lying about it, but one person whose own self-professed limited experience reflects yours must be the only way it is! You are really too much.
It may be my wrong perception
This is without a doubt! .
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:19 pm

Adamantine wrote: Aha, so the sentiment had a morning expiration date?

Is there a problem with that?

No, but I keep thinking if I keep saying it in different ways the essential point may actually get through, and you and others won't keep talking past it.

The essential point is very simple. You either consider ngöndro essential or not for Dzogchen practice. That's the discussion.

There you go again, creating dichotomies where there are none..you must just like to argue. Nobody is claiming Dzogchen in dependent on ngondro. What Dudjom Rinpoche is saying is that in his terma lineage, "for ultimate truth of the Great Perfection to appear in your mind is dependent upon the preliminary practices." You are just too much, DN. Again, no one said the main practice is shallow either.

There's a dichotomy alright: for ultimate truth of Great Perfection to appear in your mind is deppendent upon the preliminary practices. So, Dzogchen depends of preliminaries. What am I missing?
Please leave personal remarks aside, if you don't mind.

Because this is what your Guru teaches you, and that is all. You apparently don't respect what other's teachers may teach them. I find this really quite problematic, especially for a moderator.

No, that is my experience. Not just what my Guru teaches me. I'm not saying others have to agree.
If for you a moderator having opinions on a topic is problematic, what can I say? Perhaps that you have nothing to do with it and that is simply a disruptive remark, since my opinions on the topic don't guide my acts of moderation. The ToS does.

Yes, revealing? I am clarifying the view of the Dudjom lineage, which I have extensive experience of. I know you would rather her just drop her teacher and lineage, and follow your instructions, huh?

I believe she knows her experience better than you, no? If that's her experience, then that's her experience. Hers, not yours. She's not the first that I meet having the same experience in the same lineage. Your experience, however, is new to me.

No but you sure don't show any respect for the views of others.

That's your fantasy. I just don't have to agree. I speak my mind plainly. If people think they should ngöndro in order to practice Dzogchen, it's up to them.
I did and it didn't do me much good for that purpose. Should I hide my opinion? You sure voice yours loud and everywhere.

What Lamas were ever criticizing his way of teaching Dzogchen? Please give us a list. I don't know of any, I only ever heard a criticism of the video-tape direct introduction, from one Lama.. Now with webcasts they would maybe feel differently. Everything else is a straw man, or your imagination, unless you tell us whom was giving him heat. Because many great Lamas of his generation taught and teach Dzogchen openly: Dudjom RInpoche, Tulku Urgyen, Penor Rinpoche, Lama Wangdor, KDL, and many more. . . This is not unique. He has a particular style of presenting Dzogchen, and his own dream-vision teachings, but please don't pretend like he is this great exception for presenting Dzogchen openly. This is not the case. Some Lama's styles of presenting Dzogchen includes the ngondro. Some styles don't. All of your elaborate prolific posts just keep talking past this simple point.

This is known fact that ChNN talks about quite often. The fact that you don't know of any doesn't mean there wasn't any. I never had any reason to suspect ChNN was making this up. It seems this was rather public back then.
Indeed he has a particular style of presenting Dzogchen. One of the particularities of his style is not considering ngöndro mandatory and teaching Dzogchen without making you go through yidam practice. It seems KDL did the same. Malcom should know that better than me, being his heart son and all.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:23 pm

Adamantine wrote: That is just ridiculous DN. I was trying to assist someone in understanding the context of a lineage she is already connected to. This is trying to be helpful. Maybe her Lama has reasons for not introducing her to Dzogchen, but this is not the general approach of the Dudjom lineage. Saying so is not "damage control" it is simple reality.

Of course you were.

Right, because the experiences of many people here whom have been practicing for many years do not match your own limited experience, then we must be lying about it, but one person whose own self-professed limited experience reflects yours must be the only way it is! You are really too much.
.

No, I don't assume you are lying. It's your interpretation of it, perhaps with a bit of fantasy in the mix. That's what I think. This doesn't mean I'm right, just that it is my opinion. It's just yours is quite an original take unlike any I have ever met in other students of your lineage. For instance, Ogyen's experience is much closer to what I've seen. As I said, I may be wrong, but I don't have any reasons to assume you guys are right and they are wrong.

By the way, I can travel, you know? And have done that a lot. My experience isn't limited to Portugal. If it were, I wouldn't be ChNN student, would I?
Obviously I know these sanghas better and your depreciative comment is inappropriate and rude. If there are members from these sanghas in the board, they may very well take offense with what you said.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:24 pm

xylem wrote:dechen norbu-la...

i've tried starting a new topic for some days now and the interface will not allow me. i presume that functionality of my subscription to DW is not activated.

-xy

Dechen Norbu wrote:
xylem wrote:my crap

This is not the place for that discussion.
You can, however, explain your theory in its proper topic.

Very strange. Bring that to the attention of an administrator, if you don't mind. Mods can't do much about it.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:32 pm

ngondro is not a necessary prerequisite for dzogchen practice. check.
generation stage practice is not a necessary prerequisite for dzogchen practice. check.
completion stage practice characteristics is not a necessary prerequisite for dzogchen practice. check.
introduction to the nature of one's mind is a necessary prerequisite for dzogchen practice. check.

i think everybody would agree with these statements given the qualifier "necessary".

we can find different examples in the namthars of the great masters as precedents to this viewpoint. we can look at it logically and also convince ourselves of this viewpoint. we can look at examples of contemporary lamas and convince ourselves of this viewpoint (presuming we have faith in those lamas).

it is possible to leave the discussion at that, and then the thread ends. but it doesn't.

where my ears perk up is that something else is also suggested. that ngondro/kyerim/dzogrim are disjoint from dzogchen. this is dzogchen, that's tantra. there are no theoretical or pragmatic reasons for making and maintaining that dichotomy. i would argue quite the contrary.

this is why i keep coming back to this subject of a distinct dzogchen dharma culture. there are other reasons to identify conceptual differences and maintain them in one's view than philosophy and practice. one of those is culture. i'm from palyul, you're from kathok. i'm dzogchen re dzogchen, you're dzogchen re inner tantras.

-xy
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:36 pm

It's not disjoint. It's the mean to get to practice Dzogchen in the tantric approach. After kyerim you enter trekchod.
But one thing is tantric practice that deals with mind and another is Dzogchen practice that deals with the nature of the mind. There's a huge difference here, one that if not understood by own experience won't allow Dzogchen practice at all.

There aren't two or three or several Dzogchens. I said that already. Once you enter trekchod, it doesn't matter where you came from. It's the same.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
No, but I keep thinking if I keep saying it in different ways the essential point may actually get through, and you and others won't keep talking past it.

The essential point is very simple. You either consider ngöndro essential or not for Dzogchen practice. That's the discussion.

That's only the discussion you are having. No one else is having it with you.


[
There's a dichotomy alright: for ultimate truth of Great Perfection to appear in your mind is deppendent upon the preliminary practices. So, Dzogchen depends of preliminaries. What am I missing?

For the emptheenth hundred time, you are missing that this is one great Dzogchenpa's view of what is important for his students, according to the treasure texts he himself revealed. No one is claiming this as a universal truth, but you are claiming your instruction from your teacher as a universal truth. As Jnana just posted in the Dzogchen Census thread, more eloquently than I could:
For what it's worth, I generally either agree with much of what Malcolm has to say on dzogchen or have no opinion on it one way or another. But to assert that he is "speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat" implies that his opinions are more valid and authoritative than those of dzogchen teachers who present dzogchen within the terma framework of ngöndro, three root practices, and so on. I don't see any good reason to accept his opinions as more valid than those of others, and it seems to me that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance.


Because this is what your Guru teaches you, and that is all. You apparently don't respect what other's teachers may teach them. I find this really quite problematic, especially for a moderator.

No, that is my experience. Not just what my Guru teaches me. I'm not saying others have to agree.
No, but you anyone who shares an opposing experience you don't believe, or claim they are having a fantasy. That is just insulting.
If for you a moderator having opinions on a topic is problematic, what can I say?
I don't have a problem with a mod having an opinion, just with one that doesn't listen to that of others, discounts their experiences as fantasy or deception, accuses someone trying to help a fellow practitioner relate to their lineage as "damage control: you have just crossed too many lines, and the fact that you don't see it is just plain sad.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:43 pm

I don't see myself reflected in your accusations, Adamantine and you are going too far.
Now can you stop being disruptive and actually discuss the topic?
If you don't have anything to add, stay silent. I'm tired of your provocations.
I'm not the topic. I have my opinions. You are not obliged to agree with them.

Ngöndro being mandatory or the importance of ngöndro in Dzogchen practice, if you prefer, is.
:focus:
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:44 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
There aren't two or three or several Dzogchens. I said that already. Once you enter trekchod, it doesn't matter where you came from. It's the same.


Once you enter trekchod, it has never matter where you were coming from ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:47 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't see myself reflected in your accusations, Adamantine and you are going too far.
Now can you stop being disruptive and actually discuss the topic?
If you don't have anything to add, stay silent. I'm tired of your provocations.
I'm not the topic. I have my opinions. You are not obliged to agree with them.

Ngöndro being mandatory or the importance of ngöndro in Dzogchen practice, if you prefer, is.
:focus:


For you the topic involves you accusing other people of mistaking "fantasy" for their own authentic experience, although you maintain complete confidence in your own experience. Many people here could easily accuse whatever your experience of rigpa or mind's nature as being fabricated, fantasy, etc. too, because the whole basis of your experience is that you never "got it" while practicing ngondro but you "get it" now. Well, everyone is giving you the benefit of the doubt, no one is accusing you of a fantasy, although to be fair, it could be the case. It would be nice if you could try to respect the people you are having a discussion with the same way they are trying to respect you. Anything else is simply ad-hom.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:52 pm

Yes. That's it.

I think we have a good summary of opinions in this thread.

Some teachers consider ngondro mandatory. Of these, some give DI before ngondro while others won't.
Others advise ngondro, but don't say it's mandatory. If you ask me, this amounts to saying that if the student is stupid he may decide not doing it and go against his teacher's advice. Well, at least he has the option. :lol:
Some teachers consider specific Dzogchen preliminaries preferable to tantric ngondro and don't consider ngondro mandatory.

Different strokes for different folk.

What more needs to be said?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:I don't see myself reflected in your accusations, Adamantine and you are going too far.
Now can you stop being disruptive and actually discuss the topic?
If you don't have anything to add, stay silent. I'm tired of your provocations.
I'm not the topic. I have my opinions. You are not obliged to agree with them.

Ngöndro being mandatory or the importance of ngöndro in Dzogchen practice, if you prefer, is.
:focus:


For you the topic involves you accusing other people of mistaking "fantasy" for their own authentic experience, although you maintain complete confidence in your own experience. Many people here could easily accuse whatever your experience of rigpa or mind's nature as being fabricated, fantasy, etc. too, because the whole basis of your experience is that you never "got it" while practicing ngondro but you "get it" now. Well, everyone is giving you the benefit of the doubt, no one is accusing you of a fantasy, although to be fair, it could be the case. It would be nice if you could try to respect the people you are having a discussion with the same way they are trying to respect you. Anything else is simply ad-hom.

Again, i don't see myself reflected in your accusations.
I have the right to express my opinions. I am trying to be respectful, but it seems the only way of being respectful to you is agreeing with what you say. I don't feel obliged to do so, neither do you need to agree with what I say.
I'm not to blame if students from the same lineages present radically different experiences. You have one experience, Ogyen and every other student I met from your lineage have a different one. I think your take has a little fantasy and wishful thinking in the mix, but that's my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
You are allowed to think the same about my experience. I really don't mind.
Now, can we please stay on topic, or will you keep turning this into a personal issue? Let me remind you again that I'm not the topic. Fell free to disagree with me, but debate my ideas, not me.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:49 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:. I think your take has a little fantasy and wishful thinking in the mix, but that's my opinion.


DN, this is simply useless abusive ad hominem and lends nothing of value to what could be respectful dialogue. The fact that you restate it again and again just shows the weakness of your own points, since apparently you feel compelled to rely on ad homs to support your claims.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:54 pm

yes. this is the philosophical view and the view of actual practice.

however-- what i hear expressed again and again is that "dzogchen" is something indeed disjoint from "tantra". dichotomies are asserted that really don't need to be asserted on the basis of philosophy or practice.

there is only one dharma. if one doesn't hold that view, one is putting a wedge between something somewhere. historically wedges have found their way between mahayana and hinayana, between tantra and stura, and between tantra and dzogchen/mahamudra.

this whole thread is actually really old. it's not too different from the single white remedy debate. it was thought heretical that mahamudra could be introduced outside the tantric context. this is something of a variation.

generally there's more unity in one's dharma vision as one's view gets higher and higher. that's why these artificially projected dichotomies are peculiar to me. i'm convinced everyone is genuine and serious and not crazy-- which is why i attribute it to a cultural expression.

-xy

Dechen Norbu wrote:It's not disjoint. It's the mean to get to practice Dzogchen in the tantric approach. After kyerim you enter trekchod.
But one thing is tantric practice that deals with mind and another is Dzogchen practice that deals with the nature of the mind. There's a huge difference here, one that if not understood by own experience won't allow Dzogchen practice at all.

There aren't two or three or several Dzogchens. I said that already. Once you enter trekchod, it doesn't matter where you came from. It's the same.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:55 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:. I am trying to be respectful, but it seems the only way of being respectful to you is agreeing with what you say.



No, actually, if you were trying to truly be respectful you would respect others experience and not just write it off as fantasy because it is different than yours. You are the only one holding to a myopic view that it has to be just one way, -the one you agree with. You don't allow for a multiplicity of views or experiences. This simply amounts to a type of fundamentalism. Congrats, you are starting a new movement: Dzogchen™ Fundamentalism!
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby oldbob » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:02 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:. I think your take has a little fantasy and wishful thinking in the mix, but that's my opinion.


DN, this is simply useless abusive ad hominem and lends nothing of value to what could be respectful dialogue. The fact that you restate it again and again just shows the weakness of your own points, since apparently you feel compelled to rely on ad homs to support your claims.



:hi:

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:07 pm

xylem wrote:yes. this is the philosophical view and the view of actual practice.

however-- what i hear expressed again and again is that "dzogchen" is something indeed disjoint from "tantra". dichotomies are asserted that really don't need to be asserted on the basis of philosophy or practice.

there is only one dharma. if one doesn't hold that view, one is putting a wedge between something somewhere. historically wedges have found their way between mahayana and hinayana, between tantra and stura, and between tantra and dzogchen/mahamudra.

this whole thread is actually really old. it's not too different from the single white remedy debate. it was thought heretical that mahamudra could be introduced outside the tantric context. this is something of a variation.

generally there's more unity in one's dharma vision as one's view gets higher and higher. that's why these artificially projected dichotomies are peculiar to me. i'm convinced everyone is genuine and serious and not crazy-- which is why i attribute it to a cultural expression.

-xy


It certainly is a cultural expression, I think this is dead on. I mean, for everyone that is reciting the fundamentalist rhetoric of Dzogchen as a stand-alone vehicle being the only correct way to look at Dzogchen practice- whom are students of ChNN, I guarantee that most are all doing Tuns and Ganapujas regularly, at the very least, (this is my experience with DC members)--which Dechen has recounted is "not Dzogchen". Ok, maybe not, but Guru Yoga of the White AH is in there, right?
Well, same with ngondro, in Dudjom and Longchen Nyintik-- there is profound Guru Yoga instructions that are actually Dzogchen
Guru Yoga instructions. Maybe there are Tantric elements in the ngondro, as there are sutra elements (four thoughts).. That is the
wonder of ngondro that it essentializes all vehicles into one pith practice. In a DC Tun or Ganapuja, you have many different tantric elements, as well as Dzogchen elements. Even the elemental purifications ChNN mentioned came from Kriya Tantra, right? Not even Maha or Anu. But he does these tuns and ganapujas all the time with his students, in every retreat, stresses the importance of them and encourages people to do these as a regular practice (if they have time). He also asks people to at a minimum attend at least one group ganapuja practice a month, right? So I am not sure why there is so much rhetoric about these supposed dichotomies, as many people have already stated that their experience of ChNN and the way he teaches is really not much different than the way their own Lamas teach.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:16 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
By the way, I can travel, you know? And have done that a lot. My experience isn't limited to Portugal. If it were, I wouldn't be ChNN student, would I?
Sure you could be, worldwide webcasts regularly.

Obviously I know these sanghas better and your depreciative comment is inappropriate and rude. If there are members from these sanghas in the board, they may very well take offense with what you said.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. What sanghas? Who is taking offense? What sanghas do you know better than who?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:22 pm

Adamantine, I'm not answering your accusations or feeding your provocations.
Please remain on topic.

Thank you.
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