Dechen Norbu wrote:
I and I didn't discuss it any further. I went to bed.
Aha, so the sentiment had a morning expiration date?
As the rest, nothing that you haven't said before.
No, but I keep thinking if I keep saying it in different ways the essential point may actually get through, and you and others won't keep talking past it.
If you believe Dzogchen is dependent of ngöndro, if you prefer to think that the preliminaries are profound and the main practice is shallow, again it's not my business.
There you go again, creating dichotomies where there are none..you must just like to argue. Nobody is claiming Dzogchen in dependent
on ngondro. What Dudjom Rinpoche is saying is that in his terma lineage, "for ultimate truth of the Great Perfection to appear in your mind is dependent upon the preliminary practices." You are just too much, DN. Again, no one said the main practice is shallow either.
I don't see ngöndro as essential for Dzogchen practice, there are specific Dzogchen preliminaries and Tantra is not Dzogchen practice
Because this is what your Guru teaches you, and that is all. You apparently don't respect what other's teachers may teach them. I find this really quite problematic, especially for a moderator.
Yes, revealing? I am clarifying the view of the Dudjom lineage, which I have extensive experience of. I know you would rather her just drop her teacher and lineage, and follow your instructions, huh?
So if people think ngöndro is essential to the practice of Dzogchen, who's stopping them? Not me for sure.
No but you sure don't show any respect for the views of others.
However, people have the right to know that there's a great teacher in this word who thinks otherwise. That there are people who have tried both approaches who agree with him. And that there are a lot of people invested in hiding this fact since it first appeared. ChNN took heat when he started to teach Dzogchen openly. This is not imagination. It's fact and it bothered a lot of many so called Dzogchen teachers. There's still criticism behind closed doors, a lot of jealousy and what have you. But some honest and well accomplished High Lamas supported ChNN and his detractors had to stop voicing such opinions publicly. That is all.
What Lamas were ever criticizing his way of teaching Dzogchen? Please give us a list. I don't know of any, I only ever heard a criticism of the video-tape direct introduction, from one Lama.. Now with webcasts they would maybe feel differently. Everything else is a straw man, or your imagination, unless you tell us whom was giving him heat. Because many great Lamas of his generation taught and teach Dzogchen openly: Dudjom RInpoche, Tulku Urgyen, Penor Rinpoche, Lama Wangdor, KDL, and many more. . . This is not unique. He has a particular style of presenting Dzogchen, and his own dream-vision teachings, but please don't pretend like he is this great exception for presenting Dzogchen openly. This is not the case. Some Lama's styles of presenting Dzogchen includes the ngondro. Some styles don't. All of your elaborate prolific posts just keep talking past this simple point.