Dzogchen and ngöndro

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:...
What can I say? What I see here is people going through a tremendous gymnastic to convince others that doing ngöndro, kyerim and dzogrim is Dzogchen practice. Why? Who knows? Maybe they think they are defending something or someone. Who knows? That is simply not true and that's not even the point that we should be discussing in this topic. :smile:


This is the very and important point of all that discussion ... students of ChNN pretend (because it is explained so by their Master) that ngondrö is not necessary before or after DI, but it could be helpfull like many other practices, as secondary practices when one has some precise limitations. Everything is then ok.
The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Sönam wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:...
What can I say? What I see here is people going through a tremendous gymnastic to convince others that doing ngöndro, kyerim and dzogrim is Dzogchen practice. Why? Who knows? Maybe they think they are defending something or someone. Who knows? That is simply not true and that's not even the point that we should be discussing in this topic. :smile:


This is the very and important point of all that discussion ... students of ChNN pretend (because it is explained so by their Master) that ngondrö is not necessary before or after DI, but it could be helpfull like many other practices, as secondary practices when one has some precise limitations. Everything is then ok.
The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.

Sönam


It has already been attempted to constrain this discussion to two camps. There are a lot more than two. There are plenty of teachers that give constant direct introduction as well as ngondro and a host of other practices. The only real point of contention I still see is that certain interlocutors want to bash the approach of others as "not real Dzogchen". To me this just looks like machismo and groupthink. I am quite content to be a student of ChNNR and also respect my other gurus' approach, as it has been personally very helpful to me. There is no One True Way (TM) and we don't need some self-proclaimed Paladins of Pure View to uphold it.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sönam wrote:
This is the very and important point of all that discussion ... students of ChNN pretend (because it is explained so by their Master) that ngondrö is not necessary before or after DI, but it could be helpfull like many other practices, as secondary practices when one has some precise limitations. Everything is then ok.
The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.

Sönam


...
The only real point of contention I still see is that certain interlocutors want to bash the approach of others as "not real Dzogchen".


The only thing that one can says is that ngondrö, deities generation and others mantras and sadhana are not a part of Dzogchen, they are secondary practices and can be helpful, but cannot be classified under the label Dzogchen. They are mainly Maha and Anu Yoga, from the pov of Dzogchen they are secondary ... but that's the pov of DC, some other pretend that ngondrö and so on IS Dzogchen teachings.
But all that is finally not important at all, as many have said, your Master says "do ngondrö and you will practice Dzogchen" and it's fine, do it so. Our Master says it is secondary and not a part of Dzogchen which is perfect in itself, so we don"t make ngondrö except we feel we like (need) to do it.

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:43 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:What can I say? What I see here is people going through a tremendous gymnastic to convince others that doing ngöndro, kyerim and dzogrim is Dzogchen practice. Why? Who knows? Maybe they think they are defending something or someone. Who knows? That is simply not true and that's not even the point that we should be discussing in this topic. :smile:


DN, you don't seem to get it, and keep talking past people. Four pages ago, you said:

"If you think ngöndro is the way to go, I don't care.
If you think ngöndro can be excellent to recognize the natural state, I don't care.
If you think it is the best method for getting rid of doubt, guess what? I don't care either.
It's your opinion. I won't debate it any further. Whether you agree or not, it's of no consequence to me.
:rolling:

What happened?
Please, take a deep breath, relax, and take this in:
You have your own personal experience of ngondro that you keep trying to convince others is the universal truth (that it is not related to Dzogchen, it is irrelevant, whatever). Others have their own personal experience of ngondro that is different, but you won't accept that for some reason. You only believe that people can have your singular experience. I think you need to be a bit open to what other's experience is, and stop just writing it off as nonsense. Maybe, ChNN says that the Tun is not Dzogchen practice, and therefore anything like ngondro is not Dzogchen practice, and is not related to it. That is fine for you, because that is the teacher you are following. No one is trying to convince you or others that are following his tradition that you all need to do ngondro. You on the other hand, seem to be inent on telling everyone else, --from whatever teacher or lineage-- that they are wasting their time doing ngondro, when they can be doing Dzogchen™, yet you don't seem care at all that your pronouncements of what is good for everyone may contradict what their own Guru's say. Nobody is trying to contradict what ChNN says is good for his students, yet you act like they are. They aren't. But you are doing exactly the opposite, trying to convince others that what their teachers may say is wrong. You need to try to put things in perspective, and accept different views about this are coming from the great Dzogchen masters themselves. As I said in another thread, Dudjom Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche both had a number of their disciples realize full rainbow body. So I think it is relevant what their opinions are on Dzogchen practice. We have yet to see any students of ChNN achieve this, so while he is one of my teachers and I respect his vision, I also am not going to discount what the Dudjom Mahasiddhas advised just because ChNN has a different view. I don't think you should either. Maybe you can take both views into account, and follow the one that makes sense to you-- but don't try to convince everyone else it is the superior one.

This is advice from Dudjom Rinpoche, please take note:

The Actual Purification of One’s Mindstream

The common practices are the four thoughts that turn the mind away from samsara. The uncommon practices are taking refuge, generating bodhichitta, purifying obscurations and gathering the accumulations of merit and wisdom. Exert yourself according to each of their commentaries until experiences arise. Especially, embrace guru yoga as the vital essence of practice, and practice diligently. If you do not, your meditation will grow slowly, and even if it grows a little, obstacles will arise and genuine realization will not manifest in your mindstream. Therefore, forcefully pray with uncontrived devotion. At some time the realization of wisdom mind will be transmitted to your mindstream, and an extraordinary realization that can not be expressed by words will definitely arise from within yourself.

As it has been said by Lama Shang Rinpoche:

To nurture stillness,
To nurture spiritual experiences,
To nurture samadhi and other spiritual states—
These are common.
But by the strength of your devotion,
For realization to arise from within
Due to the lama’s blessings—
This is rare.


Therefore, for the ultimate truth of the Great Perfection to appear in your mind is dependent upon the preliminary practices. This is what Drigungpa meant when he said:

Other spiritual teachings regard the main practice as being profound.
We regard the preliminary practice as being profound.

It is just as he said.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:51 pm

Sönam wrote:The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.


This is a straw man that you and DN and others keep throwing up, but who is saying this? I haven't seen anyone say this. In fact, the only statements I can recall are people saying the opposite: receiving DI before and during ngondro, and integrating it with the ngondro practice.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:52 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Sönam wrote:The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.


This is a straw man that you and DN and others keep throwing up, but who is saying this? I haven't seen anyone say this. In fact, the only statements I can recall are people saying the opposite: receiving DI before and during ngondro, and integrating it with the ngondro practice.


Yep, no one said anything else.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby xylem » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:03 pm

speaking quite honestly here... i think much of this debate comes down to there being an emergent dzogchen dharma culture that identifies itself as being entirely separate and distinct from mainstream tibetan buddhist culture. this statement isn't intended to be critical, just descriptive. personally i have teachers that would belong to both the mainstream tibetan buddhist and the emergent dzogchen dharma cultures. i don't think describing this as an emergent and alternative dharma "culture" is at pejorative either. "culture" has the connotation of a group's customs and beliefs. it also that the connotation of something that is passed down-- what we'd call "lineage" as buddhists.

the words of CNNR based on the dzogchen tantras support this emergent dzogchen culture as a possibility, and malcolm-la has expressed this quite articulately himself. in this discussion the intentional dichotomy of dzogchen as something separate from tantra or sutra, not only in terms of view (which no buddhist would deny) but form of practice also speaks to this. i've encountered this casually in conversation with people: "hi, i'm xylem, i'm nyingma"... "i'm bob, i'm dzogchen". i see this on FB-- religion: dzogchen. the DC of CNNR has a very unique organizational structure based on the dzogchen teachings. examples go on and on.

i think this is kind of cool and interesting.

thoughts?
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:10 pm

There are Dzogchen teachers that require students to do ngondro.
There are Dzoghcen teachers that don't require students to do ngondro.
No one should be imposing their views one way or the other.

/thread

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:26 pm

heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Sönam wrote:The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.


This is a straw man that you and DN and others keep throwing up, but who is saying this? I haven't seen anyone say this. In fact, the only statements I can recall are people saying the opposite: receiving DI before and during ngondro, and integrating it with the ngondro practice.


Yep, no one said anything else.

/magnus


Yes and that my only and central point, that I could not have a discussion for more than a year now. JLA said so in "Principes de la Pureté Primordiale" by Khenpo Gangshar, in the introduction.
Very badly translated from French ...
"The disciple that commit himself on this Path [Dzogchen] must then follow the following cursus of instructions :
1 - One retreat dedicated to ordinary preliminaries, that reflect on: a) Impermanece, b) Difficulty to obtain a precious human body, c) Inescapabilty of karmic retributions, and d) Samsara's torments.
2 - One retreat dedicated to extraordinary preliminaries including: a) The perfect Refuge, b) development of the Mind of Perfect Purity (bodhichitta), c) mandala offering, d) Vajrasattva Purification, and e) Guru Yoga (end of page note = Each of these practices must be accomplished 100 000 times)
3 - One retreat dedicated to Mental Quietness (zhi gnas) and superior vision (lhag mthong),
4 - one retreat on the yidam generation phase ...
5 - One retreat on perfection phase (rdzogs rim) ..."
... then follows 4 other mandatory retreats until Tho rgal

And you know Magnus, that it is my point since a long period of time ... happy to have come to the point!

So, what preceed has been taught in the introduction of Khenpo Gangshar's book, translation and commentaries by Jean-Luc Achard.

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:34 pm

xylem wrote:speaking quite honestly here... i think much of this debate comes down to there being an emergent dzogchen dharma culture that identifies itself as being entirely separate and distinct from mainstream tibetan buddhist culture. this statement isn't intended to be critical, just descriptive. personally i have teachers that would belong to both the mainstream tibetan buddhist and the emergent dzogchen dharma cultures. i don't think describing this as an emergent and alternative dharma "culture" is at pejorative either. "culture" has the connotation of a group's customs and beliefs. it also that the connotation of something that is passed down-- what we'd call "lineage" as buddhists.

the words of CNNR based on the dzogchen tantras support this emergent dzogchen culture as a possibility, and malcolm-la has expressed this quite articulately himself. in this discussion the intentional dichotomy of dzogchen as something separate from tantra or sutra, not only in terms of view (which no buddhist would deny) but form of practice also speaks to this. i've encountered this casually in conversation with people: "hi, i'm xylem, i'm nyingma"... "i'm bob, i'm dzogchen". i see this on FB-- religion: dzogchen. the DC of CNNR has a very unique organizational structure based on the dzogchen teachings. examples go on and on.

i think this is kind of cool and interesting.

thoughts?


Perhaps Buddhism is the Ultimate Limitation ...

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:What can I say? What I see here is people going through a tremendous gymnastic to convince others that doing ngöndro, kyerim and dzogrim is Dzogchen practice. Why? Who knows? Maybe they think they are defending something or someone. Who knows? That is simply not true and that's not even the point that we should be discussing in this topic. :smile:


DN, you don't seem to get it, and keep talking past people. Four pages ago, you said:

[...]

Other spiritual teachings regard the main practice as being profound.
We regard the preliminary practice as being profound.

It is just as he said.
[/b][/i]

I and I didn't discuss it any further. I went to bed. :lol:

As the rest, nothing that you haven't said before. If you believe Dzogchen is dependent of ngöndro, if you prefer to think that the preliminaries are profound and the main practice is shallow, again it's not my business. Makes me laugh because I can imagine several valid reasons for this being stated, none according to your reasoning.

Whatever the gymnastics you keep doing, the fact remains the same. I don't see ngöndro as essential for Dzogchen practice, there are specific Dzogchen preliminaries and Tantra is not Dzogchen practice, not mattering how many pirouettes some people do to make it pass as such.
I found your post quite revealing when Ogyen candidly expressed her very common opinion and experience here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8916
Let's leave it at that.

So if people think ngöndro is essential to the practice of Dzogchen, who's stopping them? Not me for sure.

However, people have the right to know that there's a great teacher in this word who thinks otherwise. That there are people who have tried both approaches who agree with him. And that there are a lot of people invested in hiding this fact since it first appeared.
ChNN took heat when he started to teach Dzogchen openly. This is not imagination. It's fact and it bothered a lot of many so called Dzogchen teachers. There's still criticism behind closed doors, a lot of jealousy and what have you. But some honest and well accomplished High Lamas supported ChNN and his detractors had to stop voicing such opinions publicly. That is all.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:15 pm

xylem wrote:speaking quite honestly here... i think much of this debate comes down to there being an emergent dzogchen dharma culture that identifies itself as being entirely separate and distinct from mainstream tibetan buddhist culture. this statement isn't intended to be critical, just descriptive. personally i have teachers that would belong to both the mainstream tibetan buddhist and the emergent dzogchen dharma cultures. i don't think describing this as an emergent and alternative dharma "culture" is at pejorative either. "culture" has the connotation of a group's customs and beliefs. it also that the connotation of something that is passed down-- what we'd call "lineage" as buddhists.

the words of CNNR based on the dzogchen tantras support this emergent dzogchen culture as a possibility, and malcolm-la has expressed this quite articulately himself. in this discussion the intentional dichotomy of dzogchen as something separate from tantra or sutra, not only in terms of view (which no buddhist would deny) but form of practice also speaks to this. i've encountered this casually in conversation with people: "hi, i'm xylem, i'm nyingma"... "i'm bob, i'm dzogchen". i see this on FB-- religion: dzogchen. the DC of CNNR has a very unique organizational structure based on the dzogchen teachings. examples go on and on.

i think this is kind of cool and interesting.

thoughts?

This is not the place for that discussion.
You can, however, explain your theory in its proper topic.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:24 pm

Mr. G wrote:There are Dzogchen teachers that require students to do ngondro.
There are Dzoghcen teachers that don't require students to do ngondro.
No one should be imposing their views one way or the other.

/thread

Image


You missed the other, quite common alternative: Dzogchen teachers that encourage their students to do ngondro, but in no way require it. There are many like this, fyi. People keep trying to create these false dichotomies. . .
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:24 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:When you are working with the relative condition, ChNNR suggests using practices which recognize the Base. He doesn't say, "Oh, you are having problems with obstacles to your practice? Go do the dishes, have a glass of wine and screw your girlfriend".


He does, actually (although not in so many words):


In The Crystal and the Way of Light, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wrote:The relationship called Karmamudra ('action-symbol' or 'symbol of action'), the advanced yogic practice which uses sexual union as a means to achieve the union of the solar and lunar energies, is both the source and manifestation of the yab-yum image, so prevalent in tantric ritual art, which symbolizes reality as the blissful play of voidness and energy. This relationship is a serious practice rather than being just a way to disguise eroticism as a spiritual practice or a sophisticated way to enjoy sexual contact. Its importance in the advanced stages of tantric practice can be understood from the tantric saying:

'Without Karmamudra, there is no Mahamudra'.

Karmamudra is not a principle practice in Dzogchen itself. In Dzogchen one integrates one's state with whatever experience one encounters, remaining in contemplation, and allowing whatever arises to self-liberate (i.e. to liberate of itself). Thus, if one does engage in sexual union, it is considered to be a valuable opportunity for practice in that the particular intensity of the sensation that arises in erotic activity can often be clearly distinguished from the state of pure presence, or Rigpa, that accompanies it.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:25 pm

Sönam wrote:
Yes and that my only and central point, that I could not have a discussion for more than a year now. JLA said so in "Principes de la Pureté Primordiale" by Khenpo Gangshar, in the introduction.
Very badly translated from French ...
"The disciple that commit himself on this Path [Dzogchen] must then follow the following cursus of instructions :
1 - One retreat dedicated to ordinary preliminaries, that reflect on: a) Impermanece, b) Difficulty to obtain a precious human body, c) Inescapabilty of karmic retributions, and d) Samsara's torments.
2 - One retreat dedicated to extraordinary preliminaries including: a) The perfect Refuge, b) development of the Mind of Perfect Purity (bodhichitta), c) mandala offering, d) Vajrasattva Purification, and e) Guru Yoga (end of page note = Each of these practices must be accomplished 100 000 times)
3 - One retreat dedicated to Mental Quietness (zhi gnas) and superior vision (lhag mthong),
4 - one retreat on the yidam generation phase ...
5 - One retreat on perfection phase (rdzogs rim) ..."
... then follows 4 other mandatory retreats until Tho rgal

And you know Magnus, that it is my point since a long period of time ... happy to have come to the point!

So, what preceed has been taught in the introduction of Khenpo Gangshar's book, translation and commentaries by Jean-Luc Achard.

Sönam


I haven't read that book, I don't know French and there is no English translation to my knowledge. But based on your translation I would say that this is the way things would proceed more or less in Tibet. I have a Tibetan monk friend who done a three year retreat and he would think we completely lost our minds if he seen our discussions here. For him Dzogchen is so sacred that you can hardly talk about it. Anyway, Sönam, I said the same thing all the time I haven't changed my mind at all. My Guru gives direct introduction to all that promise to do the Ngondro and teach extensively on the difference between "sem" and "rigpa" while teaching for example a text by Khenpo Ganshar. Sometimes he will give direct introduction if the situation is good to anyone, just like his father. JLA is very traditional and that, I think at least, is a virtue. However, there are no rules when it comes to Dzogchen, anything is possible.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:29 pm

heart wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Sönam wrote:The only statement that can cause problem is that certain students of some other teachers pretend that you cannot receive DI and not realize your nature if you have not accomplished ngondrö. This is a limitation, and some try constantly to impose it to others.


This is a straw man that you and DN and others keep throwing up, but who is saying this? I haven't seen anyone say this. In fact, the only statements I can recall are people saying the opposite: receiving DI before and during ngondro, and integrating it with the ngondro practice.


Yep, no one said anything else.

/magnus

It is a very common scenario sadly. One that I've seen. But there are many hybrids that in the end boil down to the same.
Ogyen innocently revealed that such was her experience with her teachers from the Dudjom's lineage.
Of course Adamatine rushed to do damage control, explaining his own version of how things are and what she should do.
But what you guys tell me has nothing to do with what I always have seen in the real world when the traditional tantric approach is used. I haven't see it all and I don't assume to, but your version sounds a little more like "romanticized version" built to dismiss experiences similar to that of Ogyen and for the sake of this discussion. It may be my wrong perception. But what I see is people happily following the ngondro->yidam->dzogchen protocol without having any need to say they are practicing Dzogchen when they are doing ngöndro. To the guys I met, from your lineages, saying such would be laughable. They say this themselves, so who am I to dismiss it? Then you fellows present an alternative version over the internet, a convenient version for this argument but that doesn't match the experiences of the people I met from your lieneages... I don't know you personally and for what I've seen you are so invested in this discussion that I simply have a hard time accepting it is exactly as you put it, I'm sorry. It seems there's a lot of wishful thinking and fantasy in the mix. I may be plain wrong! But that's how I see it.
For instance, the sangha of your teacher here in Portugal has an experience pretty much alike to that of Ogyen. And they have no problems with it.
Perhaps the sangha is getting it wrong. I don't know, honestly. But as I can understand the traditional approach, because there's a reason for it, the hybridized versions are what I find difficult to accept. Because the traditional one is quite solid.
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:44 pm

heart wrote:
JLA is very traditional and that, I think at least, is a virtue. However, there are no rules when it comes to Dzogchen, anything is possible.

/magnus


traditional and traditionalist is not so far ... and then virtue changes to vice. In a sense I'm quite traditionalist, anything is possible.

Sönam
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:I and I didn't discuss it any further. I went to bed. :lol:

Aha, so the sentiment had a morning expiration date?

As the rest, nothing that you haven't said before.
No, but I keep thinking if I keep saying it in different ways the essential point may actually get through, and you and others won't keep talking past it.

If you believe Dzogchen is dependent of ngöndro, if you prefer to think that the preliminaries are profound and the main practice is shallow, again it's not my business.
There you go again, creating dichotomies where there are none..you must just like to argue. Nobody is claiming Dzogchen in dependent on ngondro. What Dudjom Rinpoche is saying is that in his terma lineage, "for ultimate truth of the Great Perfection to appear in your mind is dependent upon the preliminary practices." You are just too much, DN. Again, no one said the main practice is shallow either.

I don't see ngöndro as essential for Dzogchen practice, there are specific Dzogchen preliminaries and Tantra is not Dzogchen practice
,
Because this is what your Guru teaches you, and that is all. You apparently don't respect what other's teachers may teach them. I find this really quite problematic, especially for a moderator.

I found your post quite revealing when Ogyen candidly expressed her very common opinion and experience here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8916
Let's leave it at that.


Yes, revealing? I am clarifying the view of the Dudjom lineage, which I have extensive experience of. I know you would rather her just drop her teacher and lineage, and follow your instructions, huh?

So if people think ngöndro is essential to the practice of Dzogchen, who's stopping them? Not me for sure.

No but you sure don't show any respect for the views of others.

However, people have the right to know that there's a great teacher in this word who thinks otherwise. That there are people who have tried both approaches who agree with him. And that there are a lot of people invested in hiding this fact since it first appeared. ChNN took heat when he started to teach Dzogchen openly. This is not imagination. It's fact and it bothered a lot of many so called Dzogchen teachers. There's still criticism behind closed doors, a lot of jealousy and what have you. But some honest and well accomplished High Lamas supported ChNN and his detractors had to stop voicing such opinions publicly. That is all.


What Lamas were ever criticizing his way of teaching Dzogchen? Please give us a list. I don't know of any, I only ever heard a criticism of the video-tape direct introduction, from one Lama.. Now with webcasts they would maybe feel differently. Everything else is a straw man, or your imagination, unless you tell us whom was giving him heat. Because many great Lamas of his generation taught and teach Dzogchen openly: Dudjom RInpoche, Tulku Urgyen, Penor Rinpoche, Lama Wangdor, KDL, and many more. . . This is not unique. He has a particular style of presenting Dzogchen, and his own dream-vision teachings, but please don't pretend like he is this great exception for presenting Dzogchen openly. This is not the case. Some Lama's styles of presenting Dzogchen includes the ngondro. Some styles don't. All of your elaborate prolific posts just keep talking past this simple point.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:04 pm

Sönam wrote:
heart wrote:
JLA is very traditional and that, I think at least, is a virtue. However, there are no rules when it comes to Dzogchen, anything is possible.

/magnus


traditional and traditionalist is not so far ... and then virtue changes to vice. In a sense I'm quite traditionalist, anything is possible.

Sönam


Then you should be a little more easy going, no? :smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Mr. G » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:05 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Mr. G wrote:There are Dzogchen teachers that require students to do ngondro.
There are Dzoghcen teachers that don't require students to do ngondro.
No one should be imposing their views one way or the other.

/thread

Image


You missed the other, quite common alternative: Dzogchen teachers that encourage their students to do ngondro, but in no way require it. There are many like this, fyi.


I have no issue with this. I don't think any sane person would.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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