Dzochenpa Census

[Yudron]

Thanks Clarence and hi Geoff! Thanks for your viewpoint.
I would say that I haven't really read anything from Malcolm that couldn't be found in the Kunjed Gyalpo.

Can I ask if you are reading the Kunjed Gyalpo in translation or in Tibetan? I am not aware of any complete translation of it. Are you using the long Khenpo's commentary translated by Valby? Does it have the whole root tantra in it?

[Josef]

Does it have the whole root tantra in it?

Yes, at least what has been published so far.

[Andrew108]

Hi Yudron,
I'm using the Valby translation which has the commentary and the original root tantra. The Valby translation is in my opinion superb and so far three volumes have been published covering chapters 1-40 and their commentary. The whole tantra is also available as translated by Adriano Clemente.
As a student with 25 years background of practice I have never come across such an amazing text. It's superb. For those who wish to fully understand the view of Dzogchen Semde then I cannot recommend this text highly enough. It is especially important text for those who come from a Madhyamaka background and who (like me) mistook some of the finer points of Dzogchen Semde. My assertion would be that it is impossible to practice Thögyal without first realizing the meaning of the Dzogchen view as outlined in Kunjed Gyalpo. This is just my assertion though and for some it may not be necessary.

[Bhusuku]

I am not aware of any complete translation of it.

There is a complete translation by Neumaier Dargyay, however, I've heard that this translation isn't that great (but my tibetan skills are still way to bad to judge about that, so I don't know how good or bad the translation actually is).

[Bhusuku]

The whole tantra is also available as translated by Adriano Clemente.

Really? Didn't know that. Can you tell me where I can get Adriano's translation?

[Andrew108]

The whole tantra is also available as translated by Adriano Clemente.

Really? Didn't know that. Can you tell me where I can get Adriano's translation?

Hi Adriano's translation is called 'The Supreme Source' available from ShangShung or Amazon.

[Bhusuku]

The whole tantra is also available as translated by Adriano Clemente.

Really? Didn't know that. Can you tell me where I can get Adriano's translation?

Hi Adriano's translation is called 'The Supreme Source' available from ShangShung or Amazon.

But the Supreme source contains only excerpts of the KG, not the whole translation.

[Sönam]

Hi Adriano's translation is called 'The Supreme Source' available from ShangShung or Amazon.

But the Supreme source contains only excerpts of the KG, not the whole translation.

But what has been translated in the Supreme Source is quite representative of KG.

Sönam

[Bhusuku]

But what has been translated in the Supreme Source is quite representative of KG.

Of course. But since Andrew mentioned that Adriano has translated the whole thing, I thought he wasn't talking about the Supreme Source, but another book.

[heart]

Thanks Clarence and hi Geoff! Thanks for your viewpoint.
I would say that I haven't really read anything from Malcolm that couldn't be found in the Kunjed Gyalpo.

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

[Andrew108]

Thanks Clarence and hi Geoff! Thanks for your viewpoint.
I would say that I haven't really read anything from Malcolm that couldn't be found in the Kunjed Gyalpo.

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

The audience for this tantra is anyone who is inspired to seek it out and inspired by what is put forward in the tantra.
I''m not really interested in discussing about what Malcolm posts apart from to say that I'm glad he continues to post. Personally I understand what he writes from the point of view of the Kunjed Gyalpo and that helps.
But of course Greg was right to point out that it is unskilful to seem triumphalist when talking about Dzogchen vis a vis other schools/approaches.

[heart]

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

The audience for this tantra is anyone who is inspired to seek it out and inspired by what is put forward in the tantra.
I''m not really interested in discussing about what Malcolm posts apart from to say that I'm glad he continues to post. Personally I understand what he writes from the point of view of the Kunjed Gyalpo and that helps.
But of course Greg was right to point out that it is unskilful to seem triumphalist when talking about Dzogchen vis a vis other schools/approaches.

I have the Tantra here close to my computer. My Guru gave me permission to study it almost 20 years ago when I came across E. K. Neumaier-Dargyay first translation, the Supreme Source is a infinitely better translation. Anyway, the audience in the Tantra are defined as practitioners of atiyoga, anuyoga, mahayoga and sattvayoga, it is on page 135 in my edition. I think this is an interesting point that clearly show how closely related these yanas are. This is what I been trying to say in these discussions all the time, that from a practical point of view there is a lot of overlapping between the inner Tantras. Take a look at Tulku Urgyens two volumes "As it is" and you will see abundant overlapping with Dzogchen as the heart of it all. And for your information I am a Dzogchen practitioner.

/magnus

[Mr. G]

I've been inspired my Malcolm but must clarify that he is speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat.

Bullshit. Malcolm is speaking from the point of view of Malcolm.

Jnana, what views do you think differ from the Dzogchen tantras?

[Sönam]

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

The audience for this tantra is anyone who is inspired to seek it out and inspired by what is put forward in the tantra.
I''m not really interested in discussing about what Malcolm posts apart from to say that I'm glad he continues to post. Personally I understand what he writes from the point of view of the Kunjed Gyalpo and that helps.
But of course Greg was right to point out that it is unskilful to seem triumphalist when talking about Dzogchen vis a vis other schools/approaches.

I have the Tantra here close to my computer. My Guru gave me permission to study it almost 20 years ago when I came across E. K. Neumaier-Dargyay first translation, the Supreme Source is a infinitely better translation. Anyway, the audience in the Tantra are defined as practitioners of atiyoga, anuyoga, mahayoga and sattvayoga, it is on page 135 in my edition. I think this is an interesting point that clearly show how closely related these yanas are. This is what I been trying to say in these discussions all the time, that from a practical point of view there is a lot of overlapping between the inner Tantras. Take a look at Tulku Urgyens two volumes "As it is" and you will see abundant overlapping with Dzogchen as the heart of it all. And for your information I am a Dzogchen practitioner.

/magnus

As I already proposed it in another thread, and if ever Buddhism had the privileged place of the "Ultimate Limitation" ... none other would have a better place

Sönam

[Andrew108]

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

The audience for this tantra is anyone who is inspired to seek it out and inspired by what is put forward in the tantra.
I''m not really interested in discussing about what Malcolm posts apart from to say that I'm glad he continues to post. Personally I understand what he writes from the point of view of the Kunjed Gyalpo and that helps.
But of course Greg was right to point out that it is unskilful to seem triumphalist when talking about Dzogchen vis a vis other schools/approaches.

I have the Tantra here close to my computer. My Guru gave me permission to study it almost 20 years ago when I came across E. K. Neumaier-Dargyay first translation, the Supreme Source is a infinitely better translation. Anyway, the audience in the Tantra are defined as practitioners of atiyoga, anuyoga, mahayoga and sattvayoga, it is on page 135 in my edition. I think this is an interesting point that clearly show how closely related these yanas are. This is what I been trying to say in these discussions all the time, that from a practical point of view there is a lot of overlapping between the inner Tantras. Take a look at Tulku Urgyens two volumes "As it is" and you will see abundant overlapping with Dzogchen as the heart of it all. And for your information I am a Dzogchen practitioner.

/magnus

Hi Magnus,
If possible try to get hold of the Valby translations. Really wonderful.

[Sönam]

It is a wonderful text but as I remember it the audience in this Tantra are practitioners Mahayoga, Auyoga and Atiyoga. I think you have to elaborate a little if I am going to understand how Malcolms latest post correspond with this Tantra.

/magnus

Of course it is addressed to Maha, Anu Yoga practitioners (Supreme Source, 1st chapter, p.135: Also present are yogins who are following the four paths of atiyoga, anuyoga, mahayoga and sattvayoga) ... but what does it tell them?

Sönam

[Sönam]

...
He says that was present ati, anu, maha yoga ... and sattvayoga. Those who practice sattva-yoga, symbolized by Sattva-vajra.

"[Sattvavajra asked:] Teachers of teachers, supreme source, I too am among your disciples, but what is the meaning of my manifestation? Why am I here? I beseech you, please explain this to me!"

those who follow a buddhist cursus ... and those who practice sattvayoga.

Sönam

[heart]

Hi Magnus,
If possible try to get hold of the Valby translations. Really wonderful.

I have the first volume but I find it difficult to read.

/magnus

[Jnana]

Jnana, what views do you think differ from the Dzogchen tantras?

For what it's worth, I generally either agree with much of what Malcolm has to say on dzogchen or have no opinion on it one way or another. But to assert that he is "speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat" implies that his opinions are more valid and authoritative than those of dzogchen teachers who present dzogchen within the terma framework of ngöndro, three root practices, and so on. I don't see any good reason to accept his opinions as more valid than those of others, and it seems to me that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance.

[Mr. G]

Jnana, what views do you think differ from the Dzogchen tantras?

For what it's worth, I generally either agree with much of what Malcolm has to say on dzogchen or have no opinion on it one way or another. But to assert that he is "speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat" implies that his opinions are more valid and authoritative than those of dzogchen teachers who present dzogchen within the terma framework of ngöndro, three root practices, and so on. I don't see any good reason to accept his opinions as more valid than those of others, and it seems to me that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance.

Yep. Understood.