Dzochenpa Census

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Dzochenpa Census

Postby Yudron » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:34 pm

I am not re-opening a closed thread, but I want to raise one factual issue/question.

Mr. G said:
"There just happens to be more Dzogchen practitioners that study under ChNN."

There has never been a census done of people who practice Dzogchen, and there probably could not be one done accurately, because for a lot of people it is a secret practice. Therefore, we don't know how many dzogchen practitioners there are on the planet, on the internet, or on this forum, and who their teachers are.

I do know that most of my vajra sisters and brothers would not be interested in talking about dharma on-line, and among the subset who would, most are not interested in being in an atmosphere like Dharmawheel and it's predecessors--a debate-like atmosphere with mostly brainy men participating. I'm not saying that is bad or good.

However, based on my friendship network, Asian and American primarily, I really doubt that there are more Dzogchen practitioners that study under Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. More than most teachers, probably, but not more than all teachers, or all teachers put together.

Somehow the above statement irks me.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Josef » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:41 pm

It doesn't really matter.
In my opinion all sentient beings are "practicing" what we call Dzogchen.
The only difference is that some have had transmission and the rest are still missing that introduction to their nature.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Norwegian » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:45 pm

For what it's worth, I think Mr. G just referred to the Dzogchen sub-forum, not the "Internet" or "the real world", since the context of the now locked thread is activity on this forum.

It's no secret that some of the most active threads on the Dzogchen sub-forum are ChNN/DC related.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Mr. G » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:57 pm

Norwegian wrote:For what it's worth, I think Mr. G just referred to the Dzogchen sub-forum, not the "Internet" or "the real world", since the context of the now locked thread is activity on this forum.

It's no secret that some of the most active threads on the Dzogchen sub-forum are ChNN/DC related.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:19 am

Why'd Tilopa's thread disappear? Is that the one you're referring to Yudron? I saw it was locked by Astus, and now it's been removed from Dharmawheel history permanently?
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Yudron » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:28 am

Adamantine wrote:Why'd Tilopa's thread disappear? Is that the one you're referring to Yudron? I saw it was locked by Astus, and now it's been removed from Dharmawheel history permanently?


My hunch is that the staff is trying to figure out what to do with it. Perhaps it is only down temporarily.

You know, I assume all the mods and admins are volunteers, and we really put them through a lot.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Tilopa » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:04 am

Yudron wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Why'd Tilopa's thread disappear? Is that the one you're referring to Yudron? I saw it was locked by Astus, and now it's been removed from Dharmawheel history permanently?

My hunch is that the staff is trying to figure out what to do with it. Perhaps it is only down temporarily. You know, I assume all the mods and admins are volunteers, and we really put them through a lot.

I think I raised a legitimate concern which I tried to express respectfully and it certainly wan't my intention to be inflammatory. I logged off and a few hours later checked again and it had disappeared. I can only assume things became a bit heated.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:41 am

Over the years, on different forums, I've often witnessed eruptions, following much rumbling, related to a group or sect.

However, it has always been about a controversial group which people felt needed to be dealt with.

It is very ironic that this time it was about the forum reflecting the organic pattern of growth and direction of a successful organisation doing positive work.

Tara has created a Dzogchen 'sticky' with various Dzogchen links. I've made a few faltering steps to set up a FAQ for people new to the DC, and suggested that others who feel that their own Dzogchen organisation is overshadowed do something about it by posting more themselves.

Yesterday's negative discussion reminded me about discussions between Theravadan and Vajrayana folk full of bitterness about topics like Rebirth, what Buddha taught (i.e. is Vajrayana a form of Budddhism).

Hopefully, the air will now clear and people will not endlessly discuss views on practice which sometimes seem more about attachment than detachment.

I personally would love to hear more from followers of Dzogchen Rinpoche or Lama Khemsar Rinpoche of the Yungdrung Bon. I've met both and so far haven't felt the need to be filled with angst about any differences between their teachings and those of the DC.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:07 am

Dzogchen practitioners are inspired by the original Dzogchen tantras. These tantras are somewhat different to mainstream Buddhist tantras.
Presenting the view of the Dzogchen tantras can upset other practitioners who follow different views which are seen as being perhaps more orthodox.
I see Dharmawheel as a place where people come to inspire and be inspired. The important point to note is that none of it is real. It's an empty form. Obviously.
I've been inspired my Malcolm but must clarify that he is speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat. People should make this distinction and notice this because then they won't get too upset.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:13 am

Andrew108 wrote: I've been inspired my Malcolm but must clarify that he is speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat.

Bullshit. Malcolm is speaking from the point of view of Malcolm.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:24 am

Jnana wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: I've been inspired my Malcolm but must clarify that he is speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat.

Bullshit. Malcolm is speaking from the point of view of Malcolm.


Not really.
It is important to point out that the original Dzogchen tantras are not all translated or easily available. So because Malcolm is really skilled in the Tibetan language he has access to a lot of texts and tantras that are not always available publicly.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:28 am

Andrew108 wrote: It is important to point out that the original Dzogchen tantras are not all translated or easily available. So because Malcolm is really skilled in the Tibetan language he has access to a lot of texts and tantras that are not always available publicly.

Malcolm isn't the only member here who can read Tibetan tantras.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Clarence » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:42 am

Jnana wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: It is important to point out that the original Dzogchen tantras are not all translated or easily available. So because Malcolm is really skilled in the Tibetan language he has access to a lot of texts and tantras that are not always available publicly.

Malcolm isn't the only member here who can read Tibetan tantras.


:smile:

Andrew, meet Geoff. Our resident genius hermit (I am being serious). He can read Pali, Sankrit and Tibetan and lives like a hermit. He is also a nice fellow from what I can gather of reading his posts for many many years. So, sometimes it is good to listen to what he has to say. :namaste:
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:00 am

Andrew108 wrote:Dzogchen practitioners are inspired by the original Dzogchen tantras. These tantras are somewhat different to mainstream Buddhist tantras.
Presenting the view of the Dzogchen tantras can upset other practitioners who follow different views which are seen as being perhaps more orthodox.
I see Dharmawheel as a place where people come to inspire and be inspired. The important point to note is that none of it is real. It's an empty form. Obviously.
I've been inspired my Malcolm but must clarify that he is speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat. People should make this distinction and notice this because then they won't get too upset.


Hi Andrew108,

What are the "original" Dzogchen tantras according to you?
Do you read Tibetan? Most are not translated.
Have you received transmission of these Tantras?

I am happy that you feel inspired, everyone deserves that, but I certainly don't think Malcolm is talking from the point of view of the Dzogchen Tantras. He is talking from Malcolms point of view. Malcolm is a great guy and I do respect him a lot and it saddens me a lot when he unleash his anger at me. But I have discussed these matters with him many times the last 10 years or so and I know that he can change his mind, he done that before. Discussions would also become completely obsolete if one would accept the premise that everything Malcolm says is equal to the Dzogchen Tantras. I certainly respect if you feel like that but I expect that you also respect it that I don't. I think that the inability to understand that different people experience things differently is the cause of all problems lately in the Dzogchen subforum. Since in Dzogchen the view is the natural state that is beyond the mind it would be a mistake to think that it can be discussed in a forum like this. All we can discuss is our limited personal understanding of the ground, path and fruition of Dzogchen and how this is applied in various ways by various masters and in various traditions.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:04 am

"The direct, hard to understand, subtle field of knowing, the Great Path, is non-conceptual (akalpana), and entirely beyond the grasp of intellectual thought. Divorced from verbal ideation, it is difficult to point out and as difficult to enquire into. It cannot be communicated through words and [therefore] is not within the scope of the neophyte (adikarmika)"

It is in my signature but it deserves to be highlighted at this point.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:13 am

Andrew108 wrote:Presenting the view of the Dzogchen tantras can upset other practitioners who follow different views which are seen as being perhaps more orthodox.
Actually this statement is quite wrong. It is not the presentation of the view of Dzogchen tantras which is the problem, it is the manner in which SOME Dzogchenpa-ists present the view.

Example:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"

BUT

If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."

Can you see the difference?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:42 am

Clarence wrote:
:smile:

Andrew, meet Geoff. Our resident genius hermit (I am being serious). He can read Pali, Sankrit and Tibetan and lives like a hermit. He is also a nice fellow from what I can gather of reading his posts for many many years. So, sometimes it is good to listen to what he has to say. :namaste:


Thank you ... my hears are whistling since a couple of days, since Malcom stopped answering there is a rush of arrogant and caustic statements.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:48 am

Thanks Clarence and hi Geoff! Thanks for your viewpoint.
I would say that I haven't really read anything from Malcolm that couldn't be found in the Kunjed Gyalpo.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:50 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:Presenting the view of the Dzogchen tantras can upset other practitioners who follow different views which are seen as being perhaps more orthodox.
Actually this statement is quite wrong. It is not the presentation of the view of Dzogchen tantras which is the problem, it is the manner in which SOME Dzogchenpa-ists present the view.

Example:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"

BUT

If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."

Can you see the difference?
:namaste:

Hi Greg. Yes I would agree with this. It seems that Dzogchen is dismissive of the true truths when in fact the two truths are more of an 'expression' than denied.
I understand very well how Dzogchen practitioners can seem dismissive.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:59 pm

Sönam wrote:
Clarence wrote:
:smile:

Andrew, meet Geoff. Our resident genius hermit (I am being serious). He can read Pali, Sankrit and Tibetan and lives like a hermit. He is also a nice fellow from what I can gather of reading his posts for many many years. So, sometimes it is good to listen to what he has to say. :namaste:


Thank you ... my hears are whistling since a couple of days, since Malcom stopped answering there is a rush of arrogant and caustic statements.

Sönam


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