The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Matylda » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:58 pm

So what about Buddhism elsewhere? Any suggestions or ideas???
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:01 pm

Matylda wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:
Personally, I believe that we follow the Vinaya. Whether the Vinaya follows us is a different question. So, I make no distinction in name or status between Bhiksu, Bhikkuni or Japanese Lineage Clergy with wife and child ... and believe that we all stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers and sisters, not ahead or behind, above or below.

Whether others feel the same is their own business.

Gassho, Jundo


In Japanese buddhism the bodhisattva vinaya is most crucial, and one follows it if one develops genuine bodhicitta. Vinaya of bodhisattvaas is totally different in this respect then vinaya of shravakas. So one has to make certain what do we mean by saying vinaya. In the shravaka sense Japanese priest may or may not follow vinaya. In mahayana sense they could follow. But there is no excuse either, since bodhicitta is very difficult to attain. But the ideal is clear.


Hi Matylda,

I am with you.

I do try to avoid that "shravaka" word which, although not pejorative in original meaning at all, came to have such a flavor in Mahayana literature. I avoid that word for the same reason that I avoid to say "Hinayana", and instead refer to followers of South Asian traditions or the like. Even though, in the Sutras, the Buddha is heard to use the word a lot ... a wonder if it was truly Right Speech for the authors who put the word in Buddha's mouth.

A name is a name is a name is a name ... but some are still not very nice in intent.

Gassho, J
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Sherlock » Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:36 pm

The fact that so many NRMs have appeared in Japan and the lack of success Christianity has found in Japan compared to Korea is indicative of certain things in the Japanese Zeitgeist IMO. What, I can't really tell for certain but perhaps someone more insightful can draw some conclusions from that.

If the goal of marriage was to integrate living as a practitioner with the life of a layperson or at least to make it seem more accessible to a layperson, then I don't think it really succeeded at that. Japanese "priests" shave their heads, live at temples, and often have a rigid ritualized routine similar to that of ordained monks, but in the end they still marry, have children and own property. The only part similar to a layperson is the latter. Of course, this doesn't apply to all "priests" and foreigners like yourself, Jundo-sama, who take the vows often still have day-jobs but is this the norm among native Japanese? A better example to set IMO would be for an acknowledged layperson (who doesn't try to maintain any external appearance of monkhood, except maybe a shaven head if that pleases him) who has worked at a "normal" job to come out and teach. In order not for him to get derided as a founder of a new 新宗教, he'd need some recognition from a traditional authority.

This really all depends on karma in the end, it is up to all individuals involved to do their best according to their capabilities.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Seishin » Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:41 pm

Sherlock wrote:Of course, this doesn't apply to all "priests" and foreigners like yourself, Jundo-sama, who take the vows often still have day-jobs but is this the norm among native Japanese?


Some have day jobs and earn a living. Some own companies. Some treat their temple/priesthood as a "job" and a "business". Some become scholars. Some live monastically.

Gassho,
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:40 am

jundo cohen wrote:Personally, I believe that we follow the Vinaya. Whether the Vinaya follows us is a different question. So, I make no distinction in name or status between Bhiksu, Bhikkuni or Japanese Lineage Clergy with wife and child ... and believe that we all stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers and sisters, not ahead or behind, above or below.

Whether others feel the same is their own business.

Gassho, Jundo


Are you serious?

If you're married with kids and purportedly follow the Vinaya, you're already guilty of a pārājika offence.

It seems you are intentionally distorting and misrepresenting things.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:08 am

Huseng wrote:If you're married with kids and purportedly follow the Vinaya, you're already guilty of a pārājika offence.
Buddha was married & had a kid.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:42 am

Huseng wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:Personally, I believe that we follow the Vinaya. Whether the Vinaya follows us is a different question. So, I make no distinction in name or status between Bhiksu, Bhikkuni or Japanese Lineage Clergy with wife and child ... and believe that we all stand shoulder to shoulder as brothers and sisters, not ahead or behind, above or below.

Whether others feel the same is their own business.

Gassho, Jundo


Are you serious?

If you're married with kids and purportedly follow the Vinaya, you're already guilty of a pārājika offence.

It seems you are intentionally distorting and misrepresenting things.


Well, fortunately you and your ilk and inquisition are not the final determinants of what is a pārājika offence. That's a matter between my heart and Buddha's Heart.

Throwing all into Emptiness and seeing what comes out in the wash ... we are each and all at once Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, upasaka and upasika ... each manifesting such role when we act as such. Buddhas when acting in Wisdom and Compassion, Devils when acting by greed anger and ignorance ... all at once, made real by our words, thoughts and actions. Such is the flavor of our Lineage. All within us, manifesting by our choices ... coming and going at different times and situations even within one human being.

Thus, we are workers, parents, socially engaged volunteers, husbands and wives, ministers and priests, combining all holistically into the place of Practice and ministery. We seek to move from one to the other effortlessly, dropping artificial mental categories, acting in each role in the appropriate time and measure. We are parents when our children call, workers when the whistle blows, charitable volunteers where there is need, and priests,teachers, ministers and counselors when we head onto the Zafu or Pulpit. We have knocked down monastery walls, no longer finding our place of Practice andTraining as limited to within or without those walls. What is "within" or "without"? We find all of life our temple. Some 130 years ago(though actually so for centuries earlier), Japanese Lineage priests took toopenly marrying and raising children. We are bus drivers when driving a bus, office workers when working in an office, painters when painting, priests when leading the flock. The hard border between priest and lay began to crumble. Just as the traditional separation of male and female priests has been generally ignored and dropped away in the West, so we now choose to ignore the hard borders between priest and lay … for times and cultures changes, and so even many of the Buddha's Teachings change. Our Lineage celebrates that fact, and the true Realization of these wonderful Teachings out in the world where sentient beings can be saved. We are celibate when celibate, family men and women when the time is such. Far from being "neither priest nor layman", we toss allinto the envigorating wash of Emptiness … emerging as Priest-Non-Priests… "both priest and layman, male and female" … fully each and all at once!

We keep the Vinaya fully when keeping it, commit a pārājika offence when offending out of ignorance.

That's a matter between my heart and Buddha's Heart.

Gassho, J
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:47 am

jundo cohen wrote:we are each and all at once Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, upasaka and upasika

No we aren't.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:51 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Huseng wrote:If you're married with kids and purportedly follow the Vinaya, you're already guilty of a pārājika offence.
Buddha was married & had a kid.


And left them in the palace to become a homeless celibate renunciate.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:56 am

jundo cohen wrote:Well, fortunately you and your ilk and inquisition are not the final determinants of what is a pārājika offence. That's a matter between my heart and Buddha's Heart.


I am quite certain you are aware what the Vinaya is.

It is not "my ilk" and some kind of "inquisition", but common Buddhist knowledge.

What you are suggesting here is nebulous wishy-washy nonsense.

It is misleading and your ideas are not just unconventional, but simply wrong.

We keep the Vinaya fully when keeping it, commit a pārājika offence when offending out of ignorance.


You don't even have bhiksu precepts, dude.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:02 am

Huseng wrote:It is not "my ilk" and some kind of "inquisition", but common Buddhist knowledge.

What you are suggesting here is nebulous wishy-washy nonsense.

It is misleading and your ideas are not just unconventional, but simply wrong.

Indeed. Conventions do need to be acknowledged and respected. Much modernist Zen iconoclasm has no basis in Chan/Seon/Zen tradition.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:11 am

Huseng wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Huseng wrote:If you're married with kids and purportedly follow the Vinaya, you're already guilty of a pārājika offence.
Buddha was married & had a kid.


And left them in the palace to become a homeless celibate renunciate.
Yes. He experienced / tasted /indulged in life fully before renouncing it, so it must of been easier for him to give it up ?
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:49 am

Huseng wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:Well, fortunately you and your ilk and inquisition are not the final determinants of what is a pārājika offence. That's a matter between my heart and Buddha's Heart.


I am quite certain you are aware what the Vinaya is.

It is not "my ilk" and some kind of "inquisition", but common Buddhist knowledge.

What you are suggesting here is nebulous wishy-washy nonsense.

It is misleading and your ideas are not just unconventional, but simply wrong.



Hello Dude,

For someone practicing (no matter what you think you are practicing and how "True and Authentic" you feel it to be by your reading of some Sutta or Sutra you and your favorite Teacher personally digg) what is most probably ... as are most if not all current Buddhist Lineages and Traditions ... a completely invented and made-up Buddhism that was fashioned by men centuries after the Buddha based largely upon their own heartfelt communion with and interpretation of "Buddha" ... you have a lot of Chutzpah (a Sanskrit word). Yes, I will acknowledge that by your personal and subjective interpretation of Buddhist "orthodoxy" which mirrors other like minded heretics (in someone else's eyes) and fiction writers like yourself ... no, I am not practicing a Buddhism that you and your ilk may care for. That's a shame for you.

Like those Christians who say to other Christians, "You are not Christian enough because you do not know MY Jesus", you are but another rigid-religious faithful concerned about your claim to YOUR God and YOUR Holy Books. Fundamentalism, religious self-righteousness, "our way or the hell highway-ism", our Church is the True Church, Sutra-thumping, the same in all its manifestations and whatever the faith. No different, save for that it is "your strange faith and bizarre tenets" and not "somebody else's strange faith and bizarre tenets".


You don't even have bhiksu precepts, dude.


I have what I have, and no I to have it. Just what do you have, "dude"?

Gassho, Jundo

PS -

Jnana wrote: Conventions do need to be acknowledged and respected. Much modernist Zen iconoclasm has no basis in Chan/Seon/Zen tradition.


Well, some news for you buddy ... all of "Chan/Seon/Zen tradition" is a "let's make a tradition" invented by some folks according to their personal vision and times, though not bound by place or time. In fact, so is the whole Mahayana. In fact, so is most of what today passes for "Buddhism" with folks bowing down to Statues that the Buddha himself would not recognize as Buddha, chanting Sutras that the Buddha never wrote and largely would have some problem with content wise. Get over your "convention", for new "conventions" are invented every day.
Last edited by jundo cohen on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:18 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby shel » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:03 am

jundo cohen wrote:I have what I have, and no I to have it.

Your no "I" sure got it's feathers ruffled by being called Mr Cohen.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:07 am

shel wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:I have what I have, and no I to have it.

Your no "I" sure got it's feathers ruffled by being called Mr Cohen.


The wonderful thing about this Way is that one can shout out loud ... yet never leave silence.

Gassho, J
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:26 am

jundo cohen wrote:Get over your "convention", for new "conventions" are invented every day.

Get over yourself bud. And BTW, your new-age brand of pseudo-zen is nonsense.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Sherlock » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:32 am

Huseng is not saying that you can't be married and be a Buddhist, but if you want to call yourself a bhiksu or sramanera, there is a specific set of vows you have to take and keep. Since you say what is called 'Buddhism' was invented by men hundreds of years after the Buddha died, what's the point of calling yourself Buddhist at all? The sociocultural structures that belong to "Buddhism" definitely arose hundreds of years after the Buddha but the Buddhadharma, which includes the vinaya was given by him to his monks during his lifetime and codified shortly after his death.

You can technically say you "follow the vinaya" if you adhere to the householder vows as well as the bodhisattva vows, but going from there to saying "we are each and all at once Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, upasaka and upasika" is going too far. The "convention" of a community of renunciants separate from lay practitioners has been in Buddhism since its inception. It's the same thing with regard to professional qualifications -- you may have a great deal of medical knowledge but you are not a doctor unless you have a licence to practise medicine.
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby shel » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:35 am

jundo cohen wrote:
shel wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:I have what I have, and no I to have it.

Your no "I" sure got it's feathers ruffled by being called Mr Cohen.


The wonderful thing about this Way is that one can shout out loud ... yet never leave silence.

If you call five edits within 15 minutes not "leaving silence." That's actually the most edits I've ever seen in a post, and I've been participating in internet forums for years. I know this is off-topic so only respond if you feel like it, but what was going though your head during all those revisions? I'm quite sure that we can rule out "silence," to be honest. Can you be honest?
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Re: The Healthy State of Buddhism, In Japan and Elsewere

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:29 am

Due to the trolling and disruptive qualities in many posts thus far I think it best to close this thread.
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