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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:18 am 
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What does the Dzogchen symbol mean?

Image . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:25 am 
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The answer to your question is part of the transmission.
Where did you find this symbol?
The colors of the thigle are almost reversed....

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:33 am 
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There are several similar ones on Google image search


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:55 am 
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That symbol is the Tibetan letter A. The white A represents our primordial potentiality. It's in a circle of five colors called thigle. The colors represent the five elements.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Does it represent magical properties?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
Does it represent magical properties?


Nope. You ask that because other magic related spiritual traditions incorporate the elements in their practices and teachings? In the dzogchen symbol the colors represent the elements but they also represent the 5 lights. The lights become the elements when under the influence of ignorance. Which is essentially not recognizing that the 5 lights are ones own display. Nothing to do with magic, though reality itself is said to be essentially equivalent to a magical illusion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:09 pm 
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Quote:
You ask that because other magic related spiritual traditions incorporate the elements in their practices and teachings?


I do have a book on Ancient Christian Magic but not going to invoke any of those rituals.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:02 pm 
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asunthatneversets wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:
Does it represent magical properties?


Nope. You ask that because other magic related spiritual traditions incorporate the elements in their practices and teachings? In the dzogchen symbol the colors represent the elements but they also represent the 5 lights. The lights become the elements when under the influence of ignorance. Which is essentially not recognizing that the 5 lights are ones own display. Nothing to do with magic, though reality itself is said to be essentially equivalent to a magical illusion.


In your opinion, do we all suffer from this "magical illusion" of reality? Was it the Buddha who could see things as they really are?..


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:31 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:

Nope. You ask that because other magic related spiritual traditions incorporate the elements in their practices and teachings? In the dzogchen symbol the colors represent the elements but they also represent the 5 lights. The lights become the elements when under the influence of ignorance. Which is essentially not recognizing that the 5 lights are ones own display. Nothing to do with magic, though reality itself is said to be essentially equivalent to a magical illusion.


In your opinion, do we all suffer from this "magical illusion" of reality? Was it the Buddha who could see things as they really are?..


We suffer when we don't understand the true nature of reality and get caught up in delusion. 99.9999% are caught in delusion, the small few who see things are they really are, are buddhas. The Buddha (Śākyamuni) was one buddha, his teaching is what buddhism is based on, but there were myriads of buddhas before him, and there will be (and have been) myriads of buddhas after him. They all teach the dharma which is simply the truth of this "magical illusion" we call reality. When the dharma is translated into ideas and concepts it appears to be a philosophy, but when the dharma is truly actualized in one's experience it is simply the true state of being (beyond ideas and concepts) which removes the plague of suffering. We suffer because we don't understand, the dharma is the means to understand, and when we finally understand we are free.

"The dimension of apparitional being is pure and total presence....
there is no benefitting beings apart from pure and total presence.
All the buddhas of the three times(past, present, future), do not exist apart from this pure and total presence.
The buddhas of the past have seen and recognized their own minds to be this uncontrived state.
The present buddhas, recognizing their own uncontrived minds to be uncontrived,
even now are bringing about the welfare of beings.
The buddhas who will come in the future, will not teach that this self-arising
pure fact of awareness was previously contrived.
This present uncontrived state of contemplation comes from staying on the uncontrived path."
- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:03 pm 
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ok,

In your view, what is the best 'treatment' of this universal suffering from the "magical illusion" we think of as reality?..


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
ok,

In your view, what is the best 'treatment' of this universal suffering from the "magical illusion" we think of as reality?..



first stop thinking of "best" and "treatment".

It's like you're sitting in a chair and wanting to go to the store and asking what is the best way to get there. You could walk, ride your bike, take a car, have someone take you or call and have the store come to you, etc. What is the best way? Work with your own condition.

But beyond that, what store do you want to go to? What do you need, what do you want? What are you willing to do or pay to get it? When do you want/need it by? More questions. Only you can answer those questions.

stop thinking about "universal suffering from the "magical illusion" we think of as reality?" What does that even mean? Those words don't mean anything. Even in a non-buddhist sense they are so so incredibly vague as to mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, so essentially they mean nothing.

You post on the Dzogchen forum, so it would seem you have an affinity for Dzogchen. ChNN and the DC is one option for you to get a direct introduction to your own nature. There are others as well. That'll cut through a lot of empty words going 'round in circles.

Get off your chair.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:48 pm 
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I think if people are suffering from this "illusion" I would want to treat and possibly cure it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
I think if people are suffering from this "illusion" I would want to treat and possibly cure it.


In the Dzogchen context, there is nothing to cure; if you truly realize that it is an illusion, you are liberated. The way to realize this (in the Dzogchen teachings) is to receive the transmission, recognise your real nature, remove your doubts about it, and then continue in that state of recognition.

At least as far as I understand.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
I think if people are suffering from this "illusion" I would want to treat and possibly cure it.


This is actually precisely how Buddha Śākyamuni approached the issue, the four noble truths are essentially a prescription for an illness. The first, stating the name of the illness. The second being the cause of the illness. The third stating that a cure is possible. And the fourth, the means to cure oneself.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:10 pm 
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uan wrote:
stop thinking about "universal suffering from the "magical illusion" we think of as reality?" What does that even mean? Those words don't mean anything. Even in a non-buddhist sense they are so so incredibly vague as to mean whatever anyone wants them to mean, so essentially they mean nothing.


"Origination, endurance and destruction as well
Are said to be just like
A dream, a magical illusion,
And a city of ethereal spirits."
- Nāgārjuna


Some obviously thought about it quite a bit.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Sherlock wrote:
if you truly realize that it is an illusion, you are liberated. The way to realize this (in the Dzogchen teachings) is to receive the transmission, recognise your real nature, remove your doubts about it, and then continue in that state of recognition.
What if you figure out your real nature before any transmission (that you are aware of)?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
I think if people are suffering from this "illusion" I would want to treat and possibly cure it.


First, you have to liberate yourself from the illusion. Then, you'll see what to do with others.
Maybe "others" do not even exist...... :juggling:

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~ Padmasambhava ~


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:17 pm 
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I don't know how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.


Last edited by Wesley1982 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:28 pm 
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Dronma wrote:

Maybe "others" do not even exist...... :juggling: [/color]


Oh heavens ... a Cartesian turn ... Descartes' evil demon who persuades the unwary into solipsism ... :twisted:

Rene Descartes wrote:
I will suppose, then, not that Deity, who is sovereignly good and the fountain of truth, but that some malignant demon, who is at once exceedingly potent and deceitful, has employed all his artifice to deceive me; t will suppose that the sky, the air, the earth, colors, figures, sounds, and all external things, are nothing better than the illusions of dreams, by means of which this being has laid snares for my credulity; I will consider myself as without hands, eyes, flesh, blood, or any of the senses, and as falsely believing that I am possessed of these; I will continue resolutely fixed in this belief, and if indeed by this means it be not in my power to arrive at the knowledge of truth, I shall at least do what is in my power, viz., [ suspend my judgment ], and guard with settled purpose against giving my assent to what is false, and being imposed upon by this deceiver, whatever be his power and artifice.

Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy, Meditation 1, paragraph 12.


It is actually a good exercise to think through this. Whether it is a meditation in the Dharmic sense is another question; but ChNNR does advise us to integrate, and if one has studied Western philosophy, that too can surely be integrated.

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Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Wesley1982 wrote:
I don't how someone could be so self-conscious of having to take a shit.


Seriously, using the lavatory or awareness of the urgent need to do so provides excellent opportunities for mindfulness and instant presence. Don't belittle it. So do all manner of everyday things like washing one's hands, brushing one's teeth, and even stroking one's cat. Be mindfully present 24/7, especially if it involves being in instant presence, and .... The humble business of needing to empty your kishkes should not be time out from mindfulness or instant presence.

_________________
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90


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