Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

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Indrajala
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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Indrajala » Thu May 17, 2012 5:26 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Frank » Thu May 17, 2012 9:01 pm


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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Huifeng » Fri May 18, 2012 1:45 am



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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Ikkyu » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:52 pm

It's my personal belief that the Tao is easily equatable with Dharmakaya, and that Lao Tzu may very well have been a bodhisattva. The Daojia of the Tao Te Ching is easily one of the most sophisticated philosophies.
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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby DGA » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:58 pm

This is among the more interesting books I've encountered on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Penumbra-Unbo ... 812&sr=1-3



FWIW, I thought Chuang-tzu was a more interesting and subtle thinker than Lao-tzu. :shrug:

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Adumbra » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:48 am

Coexisting religions cannot help but influence one another, even if they are at war (observe the Pagan influence on Christianity). Buddhism has a goal: the end of suffering. So it is a very practical religion. But it's hard to say if there is any such goal in Taoism. It's much more speculative. More like a philosophy really...

Also, we would have to define what Buddhism and Taoism are. By Buddhism do we include Mahayana or only old school Theravada? By Taoism do we mean the philosophy advocated by Lao Tzu and Chaung Tzu or do we include the later developments like magical rituals and alchemy? I think Mahayana Buddhism has a lot more in common with Taoism then Therevada. We've got to define our terms.
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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:38 am



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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:28 am

There is in existence a Buddhhist interpretation of the I Ching The Buddhist I Ching by Chih-hsu Ou-i published by Shambhala. It's available on Scribd at http://www.scribd.com/ for free download. So obviously there was a cross-fertilisation happening.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:05 am



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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:10 am



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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:09 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Astus » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:01 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:24 pm

In China, the Yi Jing (or Zhou Yi) is generally known as one of the five great classics (jing). As such, it is a classic of Chinese culture in general. For a long time, it's been regarded as Ru (= Confucian), but this is due to later particular interpretations, rather than having Ru / Kong origins itself.

Ancient Chinese use of forms of divination is very common, the Yi Jing is one means, as are the cracks on the turtle shell, yarrow stalks or bamboo strips, inverted bowls, etc. So, this is not indicating some particular line of influence, either.

~~ Huifeng


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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:27 pm

I don't understand what you are trying to say Astus, I know the I Ching is Chinese (whatever that term means, really...) I was commenting on the book by Zhixu Ouyi which attempts to wed Buddhism (Indian, another ambiguous term) with the I Ching (Chinese). Unless you are saying that Pure Land Buddhism is "purely" Chinese?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:30 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:38 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:40 pm

Okay, I understand now! Would it then be more correct to say that the I Ching influenced Taoism and Confucianism?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:48 pm

tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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Re: Taoism in general, specifically it's connections with Ch'an

Postby LastLegend » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:05 pm

Confucius spoke of original face as neither good or evil. That is what Buddha spoke of.

Confucius spoke of personal perfection (cultivation of virtues), family, country, and peace. So in order to have peace, the country must be managed successfully. In order to manage country successfully, family must be managed successfully. A family is a unit of society or country. If there is peace within families, there will be peace within a country. But personal perfection/cultivation of virtues must be there in order for the whole structure to work. For example, we cannot respect the elders if the elders are not good role models that they they possess no moral virtues. This is a very important point in transmitting moral teachings. That's why Buddha talked the talk, and walked the walk. Another example is when the government is cruel, by submitting to it, people suffer.

America's political structure is "God, country, family, and community."

Out of all Chinese dynasties, ones that had lasted longest were the ones that adopted/honored moral teachings.

My understanding is Confucianism and other similar teachings have sowed the basic foundation of basic moral teachings on which Mahayana Buddhism stabilized itself later on in China. That is to say because of Confucianism and similar teachings, Mahayana has been doing very well in China. While in countries such as Cambodia and Laos, Theravada has been doing well.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―


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