Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

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Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:44 am

In 2011 Dzogsar Khyentse Rinpoche came to our center Pema Osel Ling thinking he was giving empowerments to the public, and teaching in private to the Druptra participants on Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche’s steller text Ri Cho on the Dzogchen approach applied to all practices. (Interestingly, this text was written primarily for his small group of three year retreatants in Kongpo, of whom Lama Tharchin Rinpoche was one.)

However, there was a miscommunication, and 500 people showed up thinking they were going to receive Dzogchen teachings. So, he taught on “Why I will NOT teach on Ri Cho.” In doing so, of course, he did teach on Ri Cho. I can't recommend this improvisational teaching too highly.

This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public. This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.

It looks like it is available at: http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/Single_Year_Teachings.html

I have not listened to the recording to see how it was edited, I hope it's all there.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:55 am

Oh great, thanks for the link! I look forward to listening. :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:05 am

Yudron wrote:This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public. This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.


Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.

M
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Bhusuku » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:12 am

Yudron, would you mind to give a short summary about why he doesn't want to teach Dzogchen to the public? I ask 'cause I'm rather broke ATM (spent all my money for Dzogchen teachings, incidentally...), so I can't afford 25 bucks to hear why he won't teach Dzogchen in public....
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:22 am

Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public. This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.


Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.

M


I'm not a cynical as you, Malcolm. Our current Dudjom lineage holders--such as Khyentse Rinpoche--for example, are not trying to defend their power base, quite the contrary. Each of them cares only about how blossom enlightenment in us as quickly as possible. An this involves being very meticulous and careful, as Longchenpa recommended... carefully working with each student in an individualized manner and protecting them from derailment. They put all their heart into carefully guiding serious practitioners, and don't give a **** what one's nationality or pedigree is.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:27 am

Yudron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yudron wrote:This teaching addresses the reasons that many lamas do not teach Dzogchen proper in public. This is similar, but not exactly the same, as the reasoning about why ordinary people like me—who are not even close to being Dzogchen masters--do not mouth off about Dzogchen.


Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.

M


I'm not a cynical as you, Malcolm. Our current Dudjom lineage holders--such as Khyentse Rinpoche--for example, are not trying to defend their power base, quite the contrary. Each of them cares only about how blossom enlightenment in us as quickly as possible. An this involves being very meticulous and careful, as Longchenpa recommended... carefully working with each student in an individualized manner and protecting them from derailment. They put all their heart into carefully guiding serious practitioners, and don't give a **** what one's nationality or pedigree is.


No disrespect, it's a nice sales pitch, but I am not buying it. No interested in religion anymore,Buddhist or otherwise, even packaged as "enlightenment" whatever that is.

But, different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes.

M
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby arsent » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:31 am

Bhusuku wrote:Yudron, would you mind to give a short summary about why he doesn't want to teach Dzogchen to the public? I ask 'cause I'm rather broke ATM (spent all my money for Dzogchen teachings, incidentally...), so I can't afford 25 bucks to hear why he won't teach Dzogchen in public....


google it.. :coffee:
http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/richo.htm
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:40 am

Malcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.


I don't believe that's what DKR is teaching here. (I haven't listened but I am willing to put money down if you want to bet) And from my experience of what and how he teaches, -he is not particularly concerned with preserving the hierarchies. He is particularly concerned with translating and propagating the Buddhadharma though.

This is precisely the kind of snarky and cynical overgeneralization that reduces your credibility considerably. I've wasted enough time in other threads trying to point out why! I'm usually interested in your opinions, even if I don't share some of them. . . but these kind of remarks are overtly polemical, and just quite silly.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:42 am

Adamantine wrote:This is precisely the kind of snarky and cynical overgeneralization that reduces your credibility considerably.



I am not terribly worried about my credibility. That is other people's problem, not mine.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Virgo » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:45 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.


I don't believe that's what DKR is teaching here. (I haven't listened but I am willing to put money down if you want to bet) And from my experience of what and how he teaches, -he is not particularly concerned with preserving the hierarchies. He is particularly concerned with translating and propagating the Buddhadharma though.

This is precisely the kind of snarky and cynical overgeneralization that reduces your credibility considerably. I've wasted enough time in other threads trying to point out why! I'm usually interested in your opinions, even if I don't share some of them. . . but these kind of remarks are overtly polemical, and just quite silly.

Actually it's one of the main reasons Dzogchen was supressed in Tibet for so long.

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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Norwegian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:47 am

I am very glad that there were and are Dzogchen masters who are compassionate enough to teach Dzogchen proper in public.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Josef » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:49 am

Norwegian wrote:I am very glad that there were and are Dzogchen masters who are compassionate enough to teach Dzogchen proper in public.

Me too.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Yudron » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:57 am

Bhusuku wrote:Yudron, would you mind to give a short summary about why he doesn't want to teach Dzogchen to the public? I ask 'cause I'm rather broke ATM (spent all my money for Dzogchen teachings, incidentally...), so I can't afford 25 bucks to hear why he won't teach Dzogchen in public....


I don't have my notes accessible right now. I wonder what the value of presenting these ideas to a forum of lovable group of guys who are currently loading their bazookas is. Sorry you don't have the bucks to buy the recordings, he made numerous points over several days.

As Dzogchen masters get old they tend to teach Trekchod openly, and you will see my first/main root lama, Tharchin Rinpoche, is getting more and more bold about what he teaches publicly as he ages at the urging of Dungse Rinpoche. I've seen this happen with several lamas, such as Khetsun Sangpo Rinpoche. There is a constant re-evaluation process that is going on about all secret practices, not wanting practices to die out because of being too tight, but not being too loose either. These are difficult critical questions that really belong in the domain of people who have brought the practice to its culmination.

There is great compassion in not teaching dzogchen publically, too. I know you can't see it, but there is.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:This is precisely the kind of snarky and cynical overgeneralization that reduces your credibility considerably.



I am not terribly worried about my credibility. That is other people's problem, not mine.


Fair enough! I really meant more the statements you are trying to make. If they were communicated in a different way that reflected a balanced perspective that reflected reality more accurately, I think the underlying ideas would be better received. I mean, the point of writing is communicating right? You don't find there to be any merit in the criticisms of this exaggerated and polemical habit of yours?
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:06 am

Yudron wrote:who are currently loading their bazookas



:group:
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Bhusuku » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:43 am

Yudron wrote:There is great compassion in not teaching dzogchen publically, too. I know you can't see it, but there is.

I'm not a particular compassionate guy. But the little compassion I have, I developed through the realization that it's better not to judge what other people might see or think.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby CapNCrunch » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:45 am

There is great compassion in not teaching dzogchen publically, too. I know you can't see it, but there is.


Dear Yudron - Good to see you! If it's you, I've missed your comments from the old E-Sangha days. I hope your practice and life are going well!

With regards to teaching Dzogchen publicly:

I think that a lot of it has to do with the capacity of the teacher. You talk about teachers being more open in their teachings as they get older - I think the reason for this is obvious.

With a perfect understanding of the secondary causes inherent in time and circumstance, a highly realized teacher *can* teach Dzogchen publicly and show great compassion in doing so.

I understand what you're saying re: the compassionate reasons for withholding teachings - but IMO this is always related to the "retinue", and the "vessel" for which the teaching is intended. Of course our compassionate teachers are always transmitting and doing their best - and they would love to teach everything to everyone all at once if it were possible and appropriate. But it's not.

Even so, there is also time and a place to teach Dzogchen "publicly", even to large numbers of perfectly prepared students. This has happened in times of old, and it has even happened in our time.

Of course there will always be some special lineages and teachings that have limits on the number who can receive etc. This too is related to time and circumstance.

But when I consider that recently a great master was able to teach even the highest teachings to 100's of fortunate students at the same time, in "public" as did KDL, I can't help but exclaim "Emaho!" and marvel at this display of compassion - even though I didn't have the Karma and DO to be there myself.

CC
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:55 am

Malcolm wrote:Yes, Dzogchen is very threatening to Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy. When it is discovered that everyone has the same state, it really renders havoc to the feudal relations Tibetan Buddhism depends on for its economic functioning.


This is actually a very interesting point. It points to the equality of teacher/student. Actually I always thought Madhyamaka if taken on properly was a threat to the hierarchy (Gendun Choepel?). Or pretty much any teaching really - the teaching of absence of self for example - could pose a threat if taken to literally. What threatens the hierarchy often benefits the student.
If you make a study of Kunjed Gyalpo or other original Dzogchen tantras and become inspired by them - infused with them - then you will understand where Malcolm is coming from. It's absolutely necessary for Dzogchen people to go back to the original tantras.
As for DKR - well he probably got shocked by the fact that so many people showed up when they heard he was going to be teaching Dzogchen. Most likely he doesn't want to travel down that road with his students just yet and the text he was teaching on was specifically related to 'Mountain Retreat'. If he does start teaching Dzogchen I wonder how many will get it because quite obviously the Dzogchen teachings are self secret. For most it takes a lot of preparation to become inspired by a text like Kunged Gyalpo - so many people would dismiss it.
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:57 am

CapNCrunch wrote:There is also a time and a place to teach, even to large numbers of perfectly prepared students. This has happened in times of old, and it has even happened in our time.



Yeah, I was sad to miss the marathon of wangs given by Thinley Norbu Rinpoche in Pharping a couple years back. He seldom had given wangs for many years, and whatever he'd given was not for the public. Then when I was in Kathmandu recently I learned more of the backstory: once he was there in Pharping at the specific gompa (the one where Dudjom Yangsi just completed giving the entire tersar wangs) he had plans to return to the U.S. within a day or two. Then, every day he was so impressed with the serious practitioners gathered there and their devotion, that he extended his trip another day, and gave another wang. Well, it went on like this apparently for a month or so. (If anyone knows the details more perfectly, or can correct anything mistaken, please do). I can't imagine how many tickets were arranged and then cancelled! It seems that he gave pretty much the entire Dudjom Tersar at that time, but this was not planned in advance. I believe circumstances came together, and it was just the perfect time, perfect place, perfect group. . .
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Re: Dzogchen Khyentse Rinpoche on not Teaching Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:00 am

CapNCrunch wrote:But when I consider that recently a great master was able to teach even the highest teachings to 100's of fortunate students at the same time, in "public" as did KDL, I can't help but exclaim "Emaho!" and marvel at this display of compassion - even though I didn't have the Karma and DO to be there myself.

CC


See the reason why DC members are so closed to their Master ... ChNN is able to give Dzogchen DI teachings to a very large number of peoples.

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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