What is Yeshe?

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What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:53 am

Yeshe + Rigpa of Dzogpa Chenpo = Sherab of Dzogpa Chenpo

Therefore the use of Wisdom in translating Yeshe seems inappropriate.

What then is Yeshe?
It is that which has the ability to perceive Dzogpa Chenpo.
A Yeshe that has not perceive Dzogpa Chenpo is the mundane mind.

What do you think?
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:19 am

Sherab wrote:Yeshe + Rigpa of Dzogpa Chenpo = Sherab of Dzogpa Chenpo

Therefore the use of Wisdom in translating Yeshe seems inappropriate.

What then is Yeshe?
It is that which has the ability to perceive Dzogpa Chenpo.
A Yeshe that has not perceive Dzogpa Chenpo is the mundane mind.

What do you think?


EPK sometimes translate yeshe in Dzogchen as wakefulness. For example rangjung yeshe as self-existing wakefulness.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:15 pm

Sherab wrote:Yeshe + Rigpa of Dzogpa Chenpo = Sherab of Dzogpa Chenpo

Therefore the use of Wisdom in translating Yeshe seems inappropriate.

What then is Yeshe?
It is that which has the ability to perceive Dzogpa Chenpo.
A Yeshe that has not perceive Dzogpa Chenpo is the mundane mind.

What do you think?



In Dzogchen, shes rab and rig pa are basically synonymous.

Ye shes is Dzogchen.

A rig pa that has not recognized ye shes is ma rig pa.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:40 am

Malcolm wrote:Ye shes is Dzogchen.

Is Dzogchen neutral with regard to Wisdom? i.e. Dzogchen is Dzogchen whether Wisdom is present or not? If yes, then since Ye shes is Dzog chen, then Ye shes is ye shes whether Wisdom is present or not. If so, then using Wisdom in the translation of Ye shes would be inappropriate.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:42 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Ye shes is Dzogchen.

Is Dzogchen neutral with regard to Wisdom? i.e. Dzogchen is Dzogchen whether Wisdom is present or not? If yes, then since Ye shes is Dzog chen, then Ye shes is ye shes whether Wisdom is present or not. If so, then using Wisdom in the translation of Ye shes would be inappropriate.

Wisdom is always present.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Jinzang » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:13 am

Ye shes = (inherent, innate, conate, self-existing) (wisdom, understanding)
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:59 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Ye shes is Dzogchen.

Is Dzogchen neutral with regard to Wisdom? i.e. Dzogchen is Dzogchen whether Wisdom is present or not? If yes, then since Ye shes is Dzog chen, then Ye shes is ye shes whether Wisdom is present or not. If so, then using Wisdom in the translation of Ye shes would be inappropriate.

Wisdom is always present.

If by Wisdom, you refer to the knowledge of the actual condition, then you are saying that light can be obscured by darkness or enlightened knowledge can be obscured by misknowledge. If your Wisdom refers to something else, then it is merely mundane wisdom and is of no consequence. Calling that Wisdom becomes an obfuscation.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:12 am

Sherab wrote:If by Wisdom, you refer to the knowledge of the actual condition, then you are saying that light can be obscured by darkness or enlightened knowledge can be obscured by misknowledge. If your Wisdom refers to something else, then it is merely mundane wisdom and is of no consequence. Calling that Wisdom becomes an obfuscation.


Wisdom (jñāna, yeshe) is the basis.

Rigpa/sherab is knowledge of one's actual condition i.e. the basis.

Anyway, you can use whatever word you want for ye shes, timeless awakening, pristine cognition blah blah blah.

These are all just signifiers anyway and of no real consequence.

Wisdom (insert favorite jargon here i.e. Jñāna, God, Brahmin, Yeshe, George, Turiyatva etc.) is a state, i.e. the basis (sthana). It is unaffected by either knowledge or ignorance, cannot be improved or damaged, is permanent, self-originated, empty, radiant, etc., has the three kāyas, everyone possesses it, and so on -- you know the drill.

Anyway, I am tired of debating people -- -suit yourself.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:... -- -suit yourself.

But of course, I don't think anyone come here to be spoon fed.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:40 pm

For those who may be interested to know, the definition of Yeshe that I provided in the opening post was the answer given to me by the yangsi of my teacher's teacher when I posted the question to him. I did not mention this earlier because I want to know what people here really think of it without be influenced by that fact.
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:52 pm

If one knows [shes] the buddhahood that has always been [ye] naturally formed by nature,
there will be buddhahood of clear realization.
That is the definition of wisdom [ye shes].


Rigpa Rangshar tantra.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: What is Yeshe?

Postby Sherab » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:05 am

Malcolm wrote:If one knows [shes] the buddhahood that has always been [ye] naturally formed by nature,
there will be buddhahood of clear realization.
That is the definition of wisdom [ye shes].


Rigpa Rangshar tantra.

Earlier you stated "Wisdom (insert favorite jargon here i.e. Jñāna, God, Brahmin, Yeshe, George, Turiyatva etc.) is a state, i.e. the basis (sthana). It is unaffected by either knowledge or ignorance, cannot be improved or damaged, is permanent, self-originated, empty, radiant, etc., has the three kāyas, everyone possesses it, and so on -- you know the drill." Therefore the basis cannot be Ye she since the basis + knowledge of the basis = ye she according to the Rigpa Rangshar.
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