Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:44 pm

Sally Gross wrote:A beginner's question which I have, which is perhaps not completely on topic but which has been exercising me for a very long time, concerns the status of dreams and waking visions. I am not in fact prone to visions, but had one -- perhaps a hypnagogic experience, but perhaps not -- when I was very little, and have never been able to forget it. There are also two dreams from my teens which were very striking indeed at the time, which I have never forgotten, and which felt as if they had a special significance. The two dreams stand out in my mind as "big dreams". It says something that I recall them vividly four to five decades along the line. It has felt for some decades as if they are relevant to my attraction to the Dhamma/Dharma, though I have never actually sought explicitly to interrogate them with this in mind. The discussion of dream-yoga brought these to mind, and make me wonder whether I should seek advice concerning them now.

I think we need to be careful not to conflate Dream Yoga with Jungian dream work or similar.
The latter may at times be useful.
But the two things are not the same and do not have the same aims.
As has been said Transmission is necessary for Dream Yoga.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Mariusz » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:46 pm

Madeliaette wrote:
I have been able to enter the 'dream zone' level and participate fully - whilst awake & meditating - for some time, but have had little ability to be aware whilst actually dreaming/sleeping itself – I thought that this book might assist me, as this seemed to be the proper way to practice, rather than whilst awake. I intend to follow the instructions given in chapter two and continue to read onward also - however, I have a question that remains.

Is it suitable/proper practice to use my ability to live and learn in this 'dream zone' whilst awake & meditating until I perfect doing so during sleep?
Try also ordinary methods like http://www.dreamviews.com/content/staying-lucid-26/. Especially Dream Spinning is the most useful for me, or when a pause after most of the night I again start to sleep early morning it is easy to notice the first dreaming images and I can continue be wake within the dreaming ... Even you can develope skills for practice like instant creation of the yidam so on and so forth using this supplementary ordinary methods ... For it you don't need Dzogchen, Good luck
Last edited by Mariusz on Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:48 pm

You're welcome Jacob. There is also this thread if you haven't seen it already:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5393#p58092
.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Jacob » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:47 am

I heard ChNN saying that it is useful to do 1-3 days dark retreat, and the instructions are contained in special booklet (i don't know which booklet is he talking about, is it that with shitro?) Some older practicioners told me, that to do this kind of retreat, first i have to practice GY of white A (this with invocations of Garab Dorje) and shitro. Why is it so? What's so special about this GY that differs it from e.g. GY of Padmasambhava? And where can i find some more instructions on that? (how long to do this shitro and GY etc.) If you don't want to write in public, please PM me :namaste:
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Sherlock » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:29 pm

Madeliaette wrote:I have been able to enter the 'dream zone' level and participate fully - whilst awake & meditating - for some time, but have had little ability to be aware whilst actually dreaming/sleeping itself – I thought that this book might assist me, as this seemed to be the proper way to practice, rather than whilst awake. I intend to follow the instructions given in chapter two and continue to read onward also - however, I have a question that remains.


A lot of occultists claim this, but this is really just giving in to your internal fantasies IMO and probably will act against your meditation especially if you are conditioned to think all your fantasies are really part of "meditation". I think some lucid dreaming advice in general could be useful though; keeping a dream journal, drinking a glass of water before bed etc. Of course, dream journals have long been a part of dream practice in Tibet before the West heard of lucid dreaming.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:45 pm

Dear all and All,

Real Teacher - Real Teachings. :heart:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CharlieMorley1/videos

http://charliemorley.com/

My 2 cents; he has transmission and can give it.

Sweet Dreams,

ob
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Stewart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:39 pm

oldbob wrote:Dear all and All,

Real Teacher - Real Teachings. :heart:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CharlieMorley1/videos

http://charliemorley.com/

My 2 cents; he has transmission and can give it.

Sweet Dreams,

ob


Yeah bob, good call,

This guy is the real deal, he has been authorized by Akong Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe Rinpoche (Who is a master of Dream yoga) of Kagyu Samye Ling to teach, and believe me they are very careful about who they give authority to.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:26 pm

Jacob wrote:I heard ChNN saying that it is useful to do 1-3 days dark retreat, and the instructions are contained in special booklet (i don't know which booklet is he talking about, is it that with shitro?) Some older practitioners told me, that to do this kind of retreat, first i have to practice GY of white A (this with invocations of Garab Dorje) and shitro. Why is it so? What's so special about this GY that differs it from e.g. GY of Padmasambhava? And where can i find some more instructions on that? (how long to do this shitro and GY etc.) If you don't want to write in public, please PM me :namaste:


Hi Jacob all and All,

Very good questions!

The book is called "Teachings on Shitro and Yangti" and it is available from SSI. It is for those who have received the transmission from ChNNR, and should be treated with the greatest respect.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=99

This wonderful book answers your questions in great (very kindly) detail. I would answer from the book, but the book is only for those who have had transmission, so I will put my 2 cent answers in my own words.

I like the dark retreat very much because I found it the fastest and easiest way to further my practice. I find it very relaxing: very good for a lazy old man. I've done 49 days total and look forward to doing more. I had been doing formal practice for 15 years before I started dark retreat, but my 2 cents is that you can dive right in. That said, it is not a practice which is suitable for everyone. One very experienced practitioner left after a short while, because he was uncomfortable, and this was completely correct. You should always observe and respect your limits. We don't practice Dharma to be unhappy. It is really important to give yourself space and respect your limits. Then you don't run away from practice.

Guru Yoga of the White Ah and Shitro are useful preliminaries because the dark retreat works better if you have done them first.

These practices all resonate with each other because they share a common aim: to help you stabilize and develop confidence in, your natural state, instant presence. They are different ways of working with the same thing. The Guru Yoga of the White Ah uses different visualizations than the Guru Yoga of Guru Rinpoche. Both practices resonate with instant presence. The Guru Yoga of the White Ah is said to be connected more with Yangti, and so it is specifically connected with practice of the dark retreat. Regular Guru Yoga is said to contain the essence of all the other practices, so maybe it really doesn't matter so much. The method and flavor of the transmission is different in each, but I feel that ultimately they lead to the same place.

The preliminary practices are explained in "Teaching on Shitro and Yangti" by ChNNR as mentioned above. You do the Guru Yoga of the White Ah until you get some result. Better to read the book than to talk about it here. Then, for the dark retreat, you bring your results to your Teacher and then ask for the next level. There are seven levels in dark retreat. It is a secret practice and that secrecy, and the transmission, should be respected. The Shitro is a stand alone practice that you can use, as a way of strengthening your own practice or as a benefit for the dead.

The Dark Retreat Hilton, in Buckland MA, is a very comfortable, and safe, place to do the practice. The Hilton was designed by ChNNR and works well. There are six rooms in it, so 6 people can practice at once. For me it works better when I am by myself, but it also works when I am with others, too. It may be too expensive for some, but if you cannot afford it, you can contact the Yellow Gakyil at Tsegyalgar and perhaps they will work with your circumstances.

http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tseg ... thchoegya/

Feel free to ask more questions.

Jacob, hope this is of help to you, and others, and that your practice prospers.

Good fortune to all and All,

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

ob
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Jacob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:29 pm

Like always, your posts are wonderful and make my attitude more relaxed :namaste: Thank you oldbob!

I really like this side of Charlie Morley, i think i will go to his retreat in london soon :)
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:23 pm

Jacob wrote:Like always, your posts are wonderful and make my attitude more relaxed :namaste: Thank you oldbob!

I really like this side of Charlie Morley, i think i will go to his retreat in london soon :)


Lucky you!
Enjoy! :smile:
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Jacob » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:29 pm

I've been thinking a lot about this mindfulness of dream retreats with Charlie Morley, and i wonder if that can bring me some good results. Charlie is a good speaker, charismatic person, but what can he teach me that e.g. ChNNR can't? I guess if i don't do a lot of 6 loka purification and some dark retreats there won't be any use of it. But maybe i am wrong and somehow i will start lucid dreaming after retreat :) Does anyone have some expierience with working with Charlie Morley? Oldbob, you have introduced us to him, can you please say something more?

Best wishes! :heart:
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:28 pm

Jacob wrote:but what can he teach me that e.g. ChNNR can't?


Nothing. He is teaching dream yoga from the perspective of Kagyu. While it is a fine teaching, it has nothing to do with the practice of the night as taught by ChNN.

M
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Stewart » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jacob wrote:but what can he teach me that e.g. ChNNR can't?


Nothing. He is teaching dream yoga from the perspective of Kagyu. While it is a fine teaching, it has nothing to do with the practice of the night as taught by ChNN.

M


Yes, different from ChNN, his approach comes from the Six Yogas....Lama Yeshe R, who is a master of these practices, gave him transmission and permission to teach.

Although I have never been to his retreats I have many friends who have, and they were very impressed. Your choice though.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby oldbob » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:24 am

Jacob wrote:I've been thinking a lot about this mindfulness of dream retreats with Charlie Morley, and i wonder if that can bring me some good results. Charlie is a good speaker, charismatic person, but what can he teach me that e.g. ChNNR can't? I guess if i don't do a lot of 6 loka purification and some dark retreats there won't be any use of it. But maybe i am wrong and somehow i will start lucid dreaming after retreat :) Does anyone have some expierience with working with Charlie Morley? Oldbob, you have introduced us to him, can you please say something more?

Best wishes! :heart:


Hi Jacob, all and All,

For me the 2 practices complement each other and I gained a lot of insight into the practice of dream yoga, as taught by ChNNR, from attending a dream yoga retreat with Charlie Morley.

For other people, I am sure that they would have different ideas and their ideas are completely correct for them. What makes sense to you, you have to discover.

Of course you should not mix the 2 practices as they are completely different, different lineages, trasmission, etc. :smile:

You can try dream yoga without doing any 6 loka or dark retreat practices. I think how easily it works depends on you. I certainly would also highly recommend going to a dream yoga retreat / seminar with Michael Katz, the DC approved dream yoga Teacher. I've attended his seminars and Michael is the best of the best. If you go to his seminar your take away will be dream yoga. Same for Charlie Morley.

http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Practice-Na ... dream+yoga

Though I haven't taken dream yoga from Ven. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche or Ven. Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, I have taken other teaching from both of them and I would trust the dream yoga that I got from them also. Again, it always necessary to remember the caveat that you should not mix practices from different lineages / Teachers.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155939 ... d_i=283155

Other people may have different ideas than I do and that is fine with me. Everyone has to work out their realization for themselves. What is correct for one person is not correct for another.

Perhaps I should mention that HH Venerable Do Drup Chen Rinpoche suggests to his students that they not study with other Teachers. This is a completely correct instruction for him and his students.
For me, Ven. Do Drup Chen Rinpoche is the same as Guru Rinpoche, and I highly recommend him as a prime source for the Longchen Nyingthig Lineage Teachings, and I feel the same about ChNNR.
That said, I have never, in the 32 years that I have been with ChNNR, have heard him say that anyone should not study with other Teachers, or limit themselves in any way, with the one exception of the Shugden practice. If others have heard differently, I would welcome that they correct me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_controversy

I agree with this, and wholeheartedly recommended that you follow this, and any other prescriptions from ChNNR, 100 per cent, if he is your Teacher.

If you have any questions about this, as to what is best for you, I would suggest that you ask ChNNR directly.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Hope this helps someone!

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

ob
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Josef » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:13 am

Jacob wrote:What should i do, according to ChNN's teaching, when i have difficulties in falling asleep in a non-distracted way? Concentrating on A makes it impossible to fall asleep, being just present is not enough, beacuse sooner or later i got distracted and fall in chaotic visions and thoughts, like usually appear before sleep.

The Cycle of Day and Night offers alternative visualizations for this problem.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:19 am

oldbob wrote:That said, I have never, in the 32 years that I have been with ChNNR, have heard him say that anyone should not study with other Teachers, or limit themselves in any way


Correct.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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