Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby shel » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:You know how politics are. Step on the wrong toes and...
What are you talking about? There is no reference on the official site decrying Jundo Cohen or stating that his priests are not recognised. One would believe that if the association had a problem with Mr. Cohen then they would, at the very least, have pulled his name and biography and link to his electronic sangha off their site.

Maybe he pays his dues on time and they like that. How do I know? I was just thinking out loud.

You still havene't answered the question: what is your gripe with Mr. Cohen? Why this personal crusade against him?

Why Jundo's personal crusade against the Buddhist doctrine that he cannot believe? Perhaps I'm afraid he will turn away people interested in Buddhism. Is that a good enough reason?
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby Anders » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:48 pm

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby shel » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:02 pm

Thanks, Nietzsche, but I don't believe anyone has claimed to not be a monster.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby Astus » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:51 am

shel wrote:Why Jundo's personal crusade against the Buddhist doctrine that he cannot believe? Perhaps I'm afraid he will turn away people interested in Buddhism. Is that a good enough reason?


Jundo's crusade against the Buddhist doctrine? Where? He actively teaches Zen, he even has a unique form of online training that in my opinion is magnificent to have. He even gives ordination so others can start/lead communities in a more official-looking way.

True, has has a not so traditional view of the sutras. But there's nothing strange or new about that. Just look at Brad Warner and compare the two styles of teaching. Or there is Sanbo Kyodan, the largest lineage in the West, that even has Catholic priests as Zen teachers. I'm not defending Jundo's interpretation of the sutras, but calling it a crusade against Buddhism? That's hardly the case.
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True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby shel » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:13 pm

Astus wrote:True, he has a not so traditional view of the sutras. But there's nothing strange or new about that.

We've already had this discussion. I don't think it's at all strange either, as I've already mentioned.

But revisiting this discussion does bring an interesting thought. "Crusaders" want change. According to what's been posted in this topic Jundo doesn't want to change any traditional views in Buddhism, he just wants to attract people who see things the way he does to his school. So it would apparently be wrong to label him a crusader. I stand corrected. In truth I didn't think much about it before, was responding to my being labeled a crusader by gregkavarnos. And now that I put some thought into that, I don't know... I don't really care what Jundo posts online, or to put it more directly, I don't care to change him, even if I thought that I could. I was, "guns a blaz'n," as Anders put it, more to see what he's really about. For instance, the way he initially said that he resigned from another forum in rather mutual agreement and then later admitted that he was cutoff against his wishes (censored). That says something to me, but I know others see it differently.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:48 am

IMO, the issue is one of correct interpretation, given that the truth in these matters is often difficult to discern, and given that the default condition of the ordinary mind is delusional, which makes such discernment very difficult. It is highly possible that there is something the matter with the way we understand the notion of the higher truth. As a result we might be heading south, while thinking we are heading north, for reasons that are not at all obvious. In other words, we can be easily mislead, and mislead ourselves. I think the 'sayings of Lin Chi' are particularly prone to being misinterpreted in this context (which is ironic, considering how often he says 'do not be mislead'). They are often quoted in support of a view that 'really there is nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, there is no real distinction between the wise and the foolish, everything is right just as it is ('bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys'). So it always seems to let you off the hook, basically. 'Hey, you can just carry on, as you are. Everything is just fine, you're already enlightened'. Perhaps there is a sense in which this is true, but it easily lends itself to mischief. That's my beef.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby dharmagoat » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:02 am

jeeprs wrote:They are often quoted in support of a view that 'really there is nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, there is no real distinction between the wise and the foolish, everything is right just as it is ('bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys'). So it always seems to let you off the hook, basically. 'Hey, you can just carry on, as you are. Everything is just fine, you're already enlightened'. Perhaps there is a sense in which this is true, but it easily lends itself to mischief.

The fact that there is still suffering easily unravels this mistaken view.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:03 am

Many people don't respond to 'the first noble truth of suffering', because, basically, they don't think that anything is the matter, they can't see anything wrong with life as it is. You know the saying 'the young think they're immortal?' That is why I am very wary of all the various forms of teaching that claim 'you're already enlightened'. I'm not saying Jundo Cohen is claiming that, but it is definitely an idea that's in the air and something that can easily be read into Zen.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby plwk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:31 am

What to do? Half of this planet is 'intoxicated' with youth, health and life... lol
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby jundo cohen » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:46 am

jeeprs wrote:... They are often quoted in support of a view that 'really there is nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, there is no real distinction between the wise and the foolish, everything is right just as it is ('bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys'). So it always seems to let you off the hook, basically. 'Hey, you can just carry on, as you are. Everything is just fine, you're already enlightened'. Perhaps there is a sense in which this is true, but it easily lends itself to mischief. That's my beef.

...

That is why I am very wary of all the various forms of teaching that claim 'you're already enlightened'. I'm not saying Jundo Cohen is claiming that, but it is definitely an idea that's in the air and something that can easily be read into Zen.


Hi,

Such claims are typically made by folks outside the Zen tradition. have been for centuries. I do not know of any Zen teacher, in any age, who would say "there is absolutely nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, no distinction between wise and foolish, you are already enlightened, everything is just as it is".

Rather, I and many other Zen teachers would say, "there is absolutely nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, no distinction between wise and foolish, you are already enlightened, everything is just as it is" ...

... but unless one is free of greed, anger and ignorance, one will neither realize ("experience") nor realize ("make real and bring to life") such truths in life.

Sounds like a contradiction? No contradiction.

If you would like to hear a talk in which I prattle on a bit more about this ...

Every moment of Zazen is complete, sacred, a perfect action, with not one thing to add, not one thing to take away. When we sit Zazen, we are a Buddha sitting.

And all of this life and world can be known too as sacred, a jewel, with not one thing to add, not one thing to take away. Perfectly just-what-it-is.

But we have to be very cautious here, not misunderstand … Saying that there is “no place to go, no destination” does not mean that there are not good and bad paths to get there! Saying “there is nothing that need be done” does—not—mean there is nothing to do. Saying that “nothing is in need of change” does—not—mean that “nothing is in need of change.” :shock:

Saying “we are already Buddha” is not enough if we don’t realize that, act like that!

Simple, exaggerated example …

Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that … a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless … still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really “at peace with how things are” (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand “peace with this life as it is” … because if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthre ... -(Part-XIV)


Gassho, Jundo

shel wrote:Maybe he pays his dues on time and they like that. How do I know? I was just thinking out loud. ...

... he initially said that he resigned from another forum in rather mutual agreement and then later admitted that he was cutoff against his wishes (censored). That says something to me


PS - Hah! Your style of tossing about innuendo and theories somewhat mirrors FoxNews on "Hussein" Obama, like a Buddhist "SeanShel Hannity" but without the juice. Would you like to see my birth certificate? :tongue: :namaste:
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:29 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
seeker242 wrote: Last I heard, zen masters generally don't give that out to just anyone.


Oh, sometimes they do give to just anyone, or to someone they think they know but really don't, or someone they know but who later changes in nature (perhaps not True Nature, but human nature anyway). The blind leading the blind.

Lineage and "Dharma Transmission" have a lot of 'hype' about em too. As with choosing a physician for one's heart surgery, a white coat and fancy medical diploma on the wall says something ... but not everything ... and so it is with the Heart Sutra! Of course, the credentials and approval of a senior teacher(s) and years of experience and satisfied patients and reputation for talent and "track record" and absence of scandal all make it more likely that the fellow with the title is not a butcher or charlatan.

I would probably tend to trust the fellow with the Title and Lineage more than the self-styled teachers, although there are so many excellent self-styled (and non-self-styled) teachers too. That's because there are lots of quacks running around with white coats they bought themselves at the medical supply store, self-awarded qualifications and snake oil they cooked up ... and I wouldn't let one of em come near me!

In choosing a Buddhist teacher or physician or used car ... caveat emptor.

Gassho, Jundo


:good: Yup!

Please see my post under Welcome - Suggestion box


3. It would be helpful if there were a website not just listing the world wide Teaching schedules of all Masters, but also cross referencing Teachings by type, time-line and price. (Perhaps we need to invent a Dewey Decimal index of practices.) A newcomer, looking at the swirl of confusion/ massive information overload, on the web, has little clue, and finds Teachers / Teachings by happenstance and karma.

A responsible,vetted web site (perhaps Dharma Wheel) could help a lot, with a cross referenced data base of Teachers, Teachings, Time Lines, schedules and prices.

This could be a simple language, clearly presented, starting point for Buddhist spiritual seekers.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:58 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
jeeprs wrote:... They are often quoted in support of a view that 'really there is nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, there is no real distinction between the wise and the foolish, everything is right just as it is ('bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys'). So it always seems to let you off the hook, basically. 'Hey, you can just carry on, as you are. Everything is just fine, you're already enlightened'. Perhaps there is a sense in which this is true, but it easily lends itself to mischief. That's my beef.

...

That is why I am very wary of all the various forms of teaching that claim 'you're already enlightened'. I'm not saying Jundo Cohen is claiming that, but it is definitely an idea that's in the air and something that can easily be read into Zen.


Hi,

Such claims are typically made by folks outside the Zen tradition. have been for centuries. I do not know of any Zen teacher, in any age, who would say "there is absolutely nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, no distinction between wise and foolish, you are already enlightened, everything is just as it is".

Rather, I and many other Zen teachers would say, "there is absolutely nothing to be learned, no discipline to be mastered, no distinction between wise and foolish, you are already enlightened, everything is just as it is" ...

... but unless one is free of greed, anger and ignorance, one will neither realize ("experience") nor realize ("make real and bring to life") such truths in life.

Sounds like a contradiction? No contradiction.

If you would like to hear a talk in which I prattle on a bit more about this ...

Every moment of Zazen is complete, sacred, a perfect action, with not one thing to add, not one thing to take away. When we sit Zazen, we are a Buddha sitting.

And all of this life and world can be known too as sacred, a jewel, with not one thing to add, not one thing to take away. Perfectly just-what-it-is.

But we have to be very cautious here, not misunderstand … Saying that there is “no place to go, no destination” does not mean that there are not good and bad paths to get there! Saying “there is nothing that need be done” does—not—mean there is nothing to do. Saying that “nothing is in need of change” does—not—mean that “nothing is in need of change.” :shock:

Saying “we are already Buddha” is not enough if we don’t realize that, act like that!

Simple, exaggerated example …

Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that … a thief and wife-beater, yet a Buddha nonetheless … still, someone filled with such anger and greed and empty holes to fill in their psyche is not really “at peace with how things are” (or he would not beat and steal and need to self-medicate). In other words, he takes and craves and acts out anger and frustration because he does not truly understand “peace with this life as it is” … because if he did, he would not need to be those violent, punishing ways.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthre ... -(Part-XIV)


Gassho, Jundo

shel wrote:Maybe he pays his dues on time and they like that. How do I know? I was just thinking out loud. ...

... he initially said that he resigned from another forum in rather mutual agreement and then later admitted that he was cutoff against his wishes (censored). That says something to me


PS - Hah! Your style of tossing about innuendo and theories somewhat mirrors FoxNews on "Hussein" Obama, like a Buddhist "SeanShel Hannity" but without the juice. Would you like to see my birth certificate? :tongue: :namaste:


Hi Gang,

Re PS: Hah! Only if your signature is MU!

Best,

ob
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby jundo cohen » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:00 pm

oldbob wrote:A responsible,vetted web site (perhaps Dharma Wheel) could help a lot, with a cross referenced data base of Teachers, Teachings, Time Lines, schedules and prices.



Hi,

This is a wonderful suggestion, and I am with you on this for everything except ... price. I know teachers who might suggest and accept a donation for joining in certain specific activities (even a priest needs to pay the rent and eat) ... but nobody who charges a fee (at least in the Zen world, and with some few notorious exceptions). I could be mistaken, as I do not know the policies and practices of all the Zen Buddhist groups in the world. I suppose the fine line between "donation" and "fee" is hard to see sometimes ... for example, when it comes to charging for a funeral service and such.

Just for reference, in our Treeleaf Sangha, and although we believe in the Virtue of Dana (Giving/Generosity), we do not accept donations. Here is our policy ...

We do not accept any "Dana" financial contributions for Treeleaf, as we have sufficient resources for what we are doing. However, I do request (strongly) people to make financial donations in lieu to charities that help folks, e.g., feeding the poor, finding a cure for a disease. In fact, it is truly a part of Practice, one of the great Virtues of a Bodhisattva.

What, you thought Treeleaf was a free service? It is a "freeing" service, but not free.


Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby jundo cohen » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:02 pm

oldbob wrote:
Jundo wrote:PS - Hah! Your style of tossing about innuendo and theories somewhat mirrors FoxNews on "Hussein" Obama, like a Buddhist "SeanShel Hannity" but without the juice. Would you like to see my birth certificate? :tongue: :namaste:


Re PS: Only if your signeture is MU!


Actually, I want to apologize to Shel for that, as it is too snide. I thought it was funny at the time.

Anyway, in Zen ... we have "non-birth certificates" :hi:

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:12 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
oldbob wrote:A responsible,vetted web site (perhaps Dharma Wheel) could help a lot, with a cross referenced data base of Teachers, Teachings, Time Lines, schedules and prices.



Hi,

This is a wonderful suggestion, and I am with you on this for everything except ... price. I know teachers who might suggestion or accept a donation for joining in certain specific activities (even a priest needs to pay the rent and eat) ... but nobody who charges a fee (at least in the Zen world, and with some few notorious exceptions). I could be mistaken, as I do not know the policies and practices of all the Zen Buddhist groups in the world. I suppose the fine line between "donation" and "fee" is hard to see sometimes ... for example, when it comes to charging for a funeral service and such.

Just for reference, in our Treeleaf Sangha, and although we believe in the Virtue of Dana (Giving/Generosity), we do not accept donations. Here is our policy ...

We do not accept any "Dana" financial contributions for Treeleaf, as we have sufficient resources for what we are doing. However, I do request (strongly) people to make financial donations in lieu to charities that help folks, e.g., feeding the poor, finding a cure for a disease. In fact, it is truly a part of Practice, one of the great Virtues of a Bodhisattva.


What, you thought Treeleaf was a free service? It is a "freeing" service, but not free.


Gassho, Jundo



Hi gang,

This is good. This is the heart of the Dharma and Lord Buddha's intent.

:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :namaste:

ob
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:24 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
]Yes, well, except that we do not have a solidified concrete Japanese Buddhist hierarchy in the west so your rebellion is pretty pointless. You are just tilting at windmills basically and taking advantage of the shock value of the statements to draw more rebels without a cause to your causeless cause! ;)
:namaste:


Hi Greg,

I truly believe that I am simply trying to provide a doorway into Buddhism for some who cannot relate to what is (to their eyes, and that is all, and not meant to be so in everyone's eyes) possible superstition, magic&incantation, baseless historical myth ... yet who can relate to and benefit from the remaining core Teachings nonetheless. They appreciate a more secular, historically verifiable, "the true miracle is in the most ordinary" vision of Buddhism, and Zen Buddhist Practice in particular. Such perspectives are not intended to be more than a viewpoint, or to deny anyone else's beliefs as inferior, for one man's "myth and made up story" is another man's sacred and cherished belief.

There may be no "concrete hierarchy" but, as the reaction of some here shows, there are certainly those who would wish to deny a voicing to such perspectives, or think it somehow a defaming of the Buddha or the like.

There is room in Buddhism ... in this boundless universe ... for all our perspectives and practices.

Gassho, Jundo


Hi gang,

Yes, it is like that.

This is why Lord Buddha is said to have taught 84,000 (meaning a lot of) teachings, so there would be something for everyone.

Like monkey, we cannot fly off Lord Buddha's hand even if we wanted to.

Whatever turns the Wheel is OK. It's all the same Wheel. The main thing is to pursue your practice with diligence.

All posts are exactly correct and true for the person posting them.

:namaste:

Best!

ob
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby shel » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:36 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
shel wrote:... he initially said that he resigned from another forum in rather mutual agreement and then later admitted that he was cutoff against his wishes (censored). That says something to me


PS - Hah! Your style of tossing about innuendo and theories somewhat mirrors FoxNews on "Hussein" Obama, like a Buddhist "SeanShel Hannity" but without the juice. Would you like to see my birth certificate? :tongue: :namaste:

Don't understand the reference, I don't spend my time watching television. Anyway, what you quote here is not a theory or innuendo. Anyone can go back a few pages in this topic and read what you wrote.
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby oldbob » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:44 pm

Confessions of a stupid head Buddhist.

Everybody does their best with what they bring to the table.

When I read some of the posts on Dharma Wheel, I am reminded of the scenario in a grammar school courtyard where one kid pushes another kid and shouts, ”you’re a stupid head.” Then the other kid pushes back and shouts, “no, you’re a stupid head.” Not that this ever happens on Dharma Wheel but you might want to think about it.

Summary: Perhaps if a disclaimer, explaining the context, is attached to "shock" Dharma of any brand, then conservative old timers and innocent newcomers won't be put off and run away.

For a Buddhist to give the appearance of slandering the sutras or ANY of the 84,000 (means a lot of ) Teachings of Lord Buddha for shock value, or to advance personal preference or power, is like a hunter shooting himself in the foot. The goal of Buddhism is liberation, not shooting yourself in the foot.

Promoting liberation is the Path of Buddhism.

Lord Buddha's intent is likened to the sun shining equally on everybody, or the earth supporting all different types.

This is how we need to be in regards to all expressions of Buddhism too. But that said, you don’t want to be off-putting to anyone who night not understand unconventional speech.

Some background as to where I am coming from.

When I visited my first Teacher in 1963 my co-seekers included Jeffery Hopkins and Alexander (Robert) Thurman. My nickname was "Nasty Boy" and I can still hear Bakshee, Geshe Wangyal, screaming across the compound, "NASTY BOY COME HERE." I would "stop" whatever I was doing and report for a scold or a pat on the head, never knowing which was coming next. I observed my ego bouncing up and down, and at some point stopped expecting. This was my first Buddhist Teaching from a Master. Building the Retreat House in Freewood Acres and later in Washington NJ was my introduction to Buddhism. Jeffery and Alexander took to studies like fish to water, but comparing myself to them, I felt like a dunce. Abhidharma was a foreign language, let alone Tibetan. I just had no talent for it. So when I discovered the Nyingmapa, I was very happy. Though the Nyingmapa’s also have great scholars, they also have a place for stupid heads like me. I took to it like a fish to water.

Hey - this I could handle. Banging my head on the floor and saying holy mantras, worked for me. After 2 nundros I jumped into the bottomless ocean of Dzogchen and no longer had any hope of attaining enlightenment or fear of Samsara. My practice, at first was to collect and practice all the practices I could find. Then my practice was not to worry about what practice I should be doing and just to observe what occurred in my continuum without comment. Now I am happy with all practices and am content to do my best with what arises in my continuum – not Dzogchen, but whatever it is, I am fine with it.

Then, one day, I realized I was like a child who did not know who his parents were and decided to read the sutras and the Mahayana texts. I gathered the Long Discourses, the Connected discourses and the Short Discourses, the Questions of King Milinda, The Jataka Mala, the Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom, and the great foundational collections of The Pali Text Society Collection, and the Motilal Banarsidass Collection. For a Buddhist book worm, walking into the Motilal book store in New Delhi, or the Buddhist Cultural Center book store in Sri Lanka, is like dieing and going to heaven. There is enough to read for 10,000 life times: or at least to provide a good way to distract yourself until death, in this life. There are many books that I own that I have never read. Sometimes I used to put one under my sleeping pillow as a comfort.

I did my best, but reading the stilted English of Rhys Davids, and Max Muller wasn't easy. Along with Edward Conze, Burton Watson, H. Kern, Tom Cleary and many others, these giants of the Western translation school opened the door into Buddhism for many Westerners. Some people call this "Dead Buddhism": dusty words about the experience of Buddhism. I can't imagine this approach being useful to the "wired" children of today, who are used to 50 reality jumps in a minute of video, but for many who like to read, these translations were and are, a valid door into Buddhism.

Today, The Dhammapadha, The Diamond Sutra, and The Crystal and the Way of Light, all sit very comfortably next to each other, on my shelf.

On the shelf without characteristics, those three great, enlightened texts, and everything else, fits very harmoniously in the Golden Temple of Lord Buddha.

This all sounds like I am praising myself but that is not the issue. (I am giving some background so you can understand, how I got to where I am.) The key point is that it is possible for all views to co-exist in harmony, and that if a stupid head like me can do it, anybody can.

I have no capacity to understand anything myself, or to explain anything of value myself, but as a stupid head Buddhist of the fundamentalist Buddha-Seed, no seat school, I have faith in the Golden Temple of Lord Buddha and am content to sit anywhere and hold all views.

Perhaps, to remain in contemplation for the length of time that an ant could walk from the tip of your nose to your forehead is more valuable than memorizing all the texts.

So perhaps for those who can contemplate, experience trumps intellectual understanding.

Some people call this, "Living Buddhism": juicy experience beyond words. Anyone can "understand" this. But how do you understand your experience in the realm of words?

Without words there is no way to communicate the experience of Buddhism in the realm of words, either from yourself to yourself or between self and other.

Lineal transmission is the actual sharing of the 'state" of Lord Buddha, in the realm without words, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Each path has its function and these two methods of teaching Buddhism are complimentary. Sudden or gradual, dry or juicy it is ALL Buddhism.

William Burroughs and Alan Ginsburg showed that shock value has a place in poetry. Shock value is at work when you are looking at your reflection in the Duchamp wall in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. (I am not going to tell you the salacious secret.) Shock has its attractor value. Turn on any prime time cable line up and most of the TV shows utilize "shock value:" vampires / zombies / and slash and bash shoot-em-ups rule. Shock has the value of making an emphatic statement to get your attention. Shock speaks to those whose language is shock. Shock can be skillful means to attract those who are alienated by traditional means. If someone with lineal transmission wants to use shock value to communicate to those who would not otherwise come into contact with the holy teachings of Lord Buddha, there is a place for that in the 84,000 teachings of Lord Buddha. Shock Buddhism with transmission, is a Turning of the Wheel. Shock Buddhism without transmission, perhaps might have a value too, but is at the same level as a word-bound text.

Perhaps traditionalists have to allow that, "Kill the Buddha," meaning kill the concept of the Buddha, is not rocket science and can be readily understood by any semi-conscious human. And so with the other "Zen" shock statements. Dzogchen also utilizes shock statements: the 8 Amazing things, and the 12 Vajra Laughs, are examples of this.

Try to take the big picture and try not to be offended by anything.

Therefore, in emptiness, no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness: and no slander either.

If someone takes the, on the face of it, very shocking, Zen statements, and the, on the face of it, very Shocking, Dzogchen statements, literally, there is no way to allow this as respectable Buddhism. How can you take the position that cause and effect doesn't function, or that there is nothing to be done except relax? As literal statements they are blasphemy. (Help, call the Dharma police, my logical righteous conceptions are being stolen.) In the context of seeing these statements as teaching tools, they make perfect sense. Throw the sutras in the garbage - well come on now - this is crazy talk until you look at the context and then, perhaps, it makes perfect sense: and, in fact, is fully respectful skillful means, the same as prostration to a dogs tooth relic of Lord Buddha, Sutra, real relic of Lord Buddha or to a Teacher.
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Perhaps if a disclaimer explaining the context is attached to "shock" Dharma of any brand, then conservative old timers and innocent newcomers won't be put off and run away.
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But reading the "knickers in a twist," feeding frenzy, posts on Dharma Wheel and one would think that someone had thrown dust on Lord Buddha's perfect representation, and that this would somehow have an effect on the perfect body of Lord Buddha or the perfect body of his holy Teachings. - HOLY SCANDAL - they shout. (Quick, someone call the Dharma Police: quick, dial 108) "Off with their heads" shouted the Red Queen. "I'm going to get you my sweetie and you little dog Toto too!" The Red Queen is a place holder for the savage Buddhists who would destroy into smithereens anyone holding views not the same as theirs. Dorothy is a place holder for any poster on Dharma Wheel who dares voice a differing opinion, and Toto is a place holder for an innocent guest cruising around DW for the first time, and the Wicked Witch of the West - -- well if the wand fits---.

Maybe we need to have a little sympathy for Dorothy and Toto in the "It's not Kansas anymore" world of Dharma Wheel.

Buddhism is a serious business that includes every one who wants to be included. Everyone's views and the right to express those views should be respected, even if they are upside down from yours, make no sense to anyone but the person posting them, are shock Dharma, or non-sense stupid head views like mine.

Maybe we can pray for peace and remember why we are here. :buddha1:

IT"S ALL OK - we whisper back in a voice that fills the universe.

quietly and respectfully,

:namaste:

ob
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby shel » Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:16 pm

oldbob wrote:The Red Queen is a place holder for the savage Buddhists who would destroy into smithereens anyone holding views not the same as theirs.

Jundo has explained that his purpose is not to change views but to merely attract potential students who think as he does to his group (treeleaf).
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Re: Baloney! and Jundo Cohen

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:56 am

shel wrote:
oldbob wrote:The Red Queen is a place holder for the savage Buddhists who would destroy into smithereens anyone holding views not the same as theirs.

Jundo has explained that his purpose is not to change views but to merely attract potential students who think as he does to his group (treeleaf).


Hi,

I do not wish to "attract" anyone to our Sangha, but I do wish to provide a place to call home for anyone who might feel left out of Buddhism by what they might see as superstition, feudalism and discrimination, myth and miracles, fiction claimed as fact and the like which is perhaps endemic to much of Buddhism, despite all the wonder of this Path that shines forth when Buddhism is freed of such narrowness. Others who see Buddhism otherwise are free to so see it (we celebrate such fact and religious freedom!) and also free to find their home and friends on the Path elsewhere.

We do not charge a cent for our Sangha, and we do not chase anyone in the door nor run after anyone who finds it not right for them and chooses to leave. I like to make the presence of our Sangha known so that it may be found by those in whose heart it may resonate because they need such a place and such friends, but we never try to prosthelytize (look up the word if you do not know it, Shel). As with most Sangha, we are tiny on the scale of things ... and so we shall always be.

Why?

Because, when it comes to religion, one really cannot change the views of anyone whose heart is not ready and open to change. Nor should one try. One can only put a viewpoint or teaching out like a seed and, if the soil is ready and the seed is right, it will grow ... or not. If it does not grow in peoples' hearts, then it just will not or was not right.

In fact, one reason that folks will not entertain any religious, philosophical or political view that they are not open to is because of a well known psychological phenomenon called "Cognitive Dissonance" (if you have never heard of it, please look it up, Shel) and the corollary "principle of cognitive consistency".

The concept was introduced by the psychologist Leon Festinger (1919–89) in the late 1950s. He and later researchers showed that, when confronted with challenging new information, most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information or by convincing themselves that no conflict really exists. ...

...

For example, Marian Keech (real name: Dorothy Martin) was the leader of a UFO cult in the 1950s. She claimed to get messages from extraterrestrials, known as The Guardians, through automatic writing. Like the Heaven's Gate folks forty years later, Keech and her followers, known as The Seekers or The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays, were waiting to be picked up by flying saucers. In Keech's prophecy, her group of eleven was to be saved just before the earth was to be destroyed by a massive flood on December 21, 1954. When it became evident that there would be no flood and the Guardians weren't stopping by to pick them up, Keech became elated. She said she'd just received a telepathic message from the Guardians saying that her group of believers had spread so much light with their unflagging faith that God had spared the world from the cataclysm (Levine 2003: 206).

More important, the Seekers didn't abandon her. Most became more devoted after the failed prophecy. (Only two left the cult when the world didn't end.) "Most disciples not only stayed but, having made that decision, were now even more convinced than before that Keech had been right all along....Being wrong turned them into true believers (ibid.)." Some people will go to bizarre lengths to avoid inconsistency between their cherished beliefs and the facts.

http://www.skepdic.com/cognitivedissonance.html


Thus, when it comes to religion or politics, it is often just a fools' errand to attempt to convince anyone, no matter the strength of evidence otherwise. People (any of us, we are all victims of this in some way ... all of us) will believe what their heart tells them to believe no matter how baseless.

Gassho, Jundo

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