Lhug-Pa wrote:Dechen Norbu wrote:...are you sure ngöndro will help you recognizing your natural state?
I'll bet that it very well could.
Nevertheless, unless your Guru specifically tells you to do Ngondro, why do Ngondro when there are Rushens?
Blue Garuda wrote:I have heard that some Gurus will curtail a person's Ngondro (Tantric) if they feel the disciple has attained the desired outcome.
In other words, the numerical tally is less important than the attainment.
Logically, therefore, a method which leads directly to that attainment is entirely compatible with the approach of some Gurus to Ngondro. If a person is fixated on the numerical accumulation rather than the attainment then they have missed the point.
Dechen Norbu wrote:The question is, did you recognize your natural state when you received direct introduction?
Just saying "oh I received DI and then I went to do ngöndro" solves nothing. The matter here is if you recognized your primordial state. If you did, why did you went to do ngöndro instead of proceeding for the second statement of Garab Dorje, "do not remain in doubt", and practice accordingly? If you didn't, are you sure ngöndro will help you recognizing your natural state? Because I very much doubt that.
Dechen Norbu wrote:Seems a pretty far fetched argument, but if that is how you see it...
I believe practices from the Longde series would be much more adequate.
Care to explain how prostrating 400.000 times, as an example, contributes to getting rid of doubt about having recognized one's primordial state? Or offering a similar gazillion number of mandalas, refuge prayers and the whole accumulations. Just curious to know how you reconcile this. It's not that I'm being limited. It seems to me that you would be using a spoon to pierce through a concrete wall instead of a power drill, that's all.
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:I just want to know the TRUTH. I don't understand why anyone should have to "bend over backwards" to find what is their right to know....it's their birthright. If your nature is natural, why do you have to do unnatural contrived rituals before the TRUTH can be revealed ?
When I was a fresh student...in love with learning about Buddhism, my faith was unbounded,
I was devoted 24/7 in my heart for many many years....but just thinking about doing all those prostrations,etc., turned me off. I feel like I'm doing a different kind of ngondro..working for this Indian family...lol Kinda like what Milarepa did , but not even close to the harshness he experienced....so there are non traditional Ngondros...no ?
Isn't the purpose of Ngondro to purify negative karma ? Aren't there other methods for people like me that balk at traditional Ngondro ? Also, I have faith that other methods, such as reading certain Buddhist transmissions, have powerful effects on those with pure faith, and that in itself clears up eons of negative karma.....preparing you for a direct introduction to the nature of your mind. So you see, I am very good at fooling myself !
Do not forget the master but pray to him continuously;
Do not let your mind be distracted but look by yourself at your own essence;
Do not forget death but get your inspiration in the teachings;
Do not forget sentient beings but chant your dedication prayer with compassion.
Translated from the Tibetan by Jean-Luc Achard
Thanks to Windsor Winey for sending the Tibetan.
Just before that happens, as I was recalling ChNN's teaching, "if ngondrö were necessary, GD would have had 4 statements,
then he continues with the fact there was no necessity to do SMS.
There si no "traditional Dzogchen cursus",
But he also says that whe have to do with our circumstances because we have our limitations.
But when someone says ngondrö and retreats are "mandatory", I must that I do not agree, because that's not what my master has taught.
[EDIT: mutsuk's off topic comments removed] As Malcolm have told you before, JLA's description of the traditional Dzogchen curriculum (in his book on Khenpo Gangshar) is the same as that of SMS. JLA is not forwarding his own program as you claim everywhere but the traditional program. Period. Or you have to concede that Yongdzin Rinpoche and many other masters are not qualified, serious, etc., in your own view. But hey, how long have you been into Dzogchen and still not distinguish the state and the individual ?
mutsuk wrote:Since nearly all Dzogchen texts state that you have to have accomplished Ngöndro before and have to perform your training in the main teaching (trekcho and thogel) in retreat, I know where I have to establish my trust.
Malcolm wrote:While it is true that in SMS there is a gradual way proceeding in the base and the first level, it is hyper-abbreviated compared to the traditional approach, the emphasis being on gaining experience in each of the topics. The practice amounts recommended are just recommendations, with a minimum of a week for somethings, and a day for other things.
But the important thing to remember is that SMS is not mandatory, and everything that ChNN teaches in SMS he also teaches in other contexts. SMS was originally designed for teacher training -- and is a comprehensive approach to the various systems found in Dzogchen.
Also, his longsal cycle is a completely different -- and is not connected with SMS at all.
Malcolm wrote:Well, it sure does not say this in any of the three series of Dzogchen tantras (of which I have thus far read). I put my trust in the original Dzogchen tantras.
If people want to follow masters that teach in the established traditional way, they can and ought to if it feels right for them.
Lhug-Pa wrote:One main Bönpo Dzogchen text, Heart Drops of Dharmakaya by Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen and Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, does not say anything about having to do Ngondro at all. This text does present the practice of Rushen as necessary before Trekcho and Thogal however (Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says to not try Thogal without proper instructions; so as students of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, we should not try the Thogal practices on our own if we read this book).