Dzogchen and ngöndro

Blue Garuda
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 pm

I have heard that some Gurus will curtail a person's Ngondro (Tantric) if they feel the disciple has attained the desired outcome.

In other words, the numerical tally is less important than the attainment.

Logically, therefore, a method which leads directly to that attainment is entirely compatible with the approach of some Gurus to Ngondro. If a person is fixated on the numerical accumulation rather than the attainment then they have missed the point.
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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:53 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:58 pm


krodha
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby krodha » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:05 pm

Really, we have to put ngöndro in the context of it's purpose. It's surely a product of it's environment, it comes from a culture where dharma is at the forefront and a cornerstone of the society as a whole (instead of being a voluntary extra-curricular activity). In Tibet, Bhutan, Nepal etc... when children came to a certain age they were most likely put in a monastery for education and the dharma was (and still is) obviously a part of that education. So a lot of kids who could probably otherwise care less about the dharma were put into these programs. For some it would be tantamount to your parents shipping you off to military school or something, you go and do it, but do you really want to be there? Most likely not. So as these individuals climb the ladder and get closer and closer to the higher teachings, to keep people away who aren't fully dedicated, an arduous practice like ngöndro was put in place to essentially say "well if you want this, show me how much you want it". Obviously the people who really truly cared and wanted the highest teachings (for the right reasons) would definitely go through ngöndro. Others who didn't care as much would look at it and say "100,000 prostrations? 100,000 vajrasattva mantras? No thanks!" And they would go off to do other things. So it's a safety net, to ensure that only those who are mature enough, and those who are sincere and genuinely care are receiving the high teachings. Because at the same time, we all know that dzogchen has elements which actually turn the lower yānas on their heads. There's elements which respectfully negate aspects of the lower teachings, such as causality, morality and so on and so forth. In the hands of an immature individual it's a dangerous thing to have and can spawn a rebellious attitude, nihilism etc. So in short ngöndro is a product of it's environment. In the west - since the dharma is essentially something that an individual has to seek out and find for themselves (instead of growing up around it) - those who take interest in the higher teachings are more often than not already ripe for it. By seeking out atiyoga and taking an interest in it (in a culture where not everyone learns of the dharma), one is essentially already equivalent to one who would voluntarily go through ngöndro to receive these precious teachings (in a culture where everyone is taught the dharma).
Last edited by krodha on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:10 pm

Dechen Norbu, I was also referring to doing Ngondro after Direct Introduction; although maybe you had received Direct Introduction before doing Ngondro too.

So again, as we are discussing, there doesn't seem to be much point in doing Ngondro when there are the more direct Rushen practices (unless, again, our Guru specifically tells us to do Ngondro).

And yes, Asunthatneversets makes many valid points in the above post.

*Edit*

With Ngondro, it is also said that prostrations can purify and heal Nadis, and that 108,000 Vajrasattva Mantras can put various Chakras into activity; so there is some obvious benefit there. Although the Rushens could do all of this and much more I'm sure. :idea:

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Agree.

PS- Yes, I did, to answer your question. :smile:

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:17 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Seems a pretty far fetched argument, but if that is how you see it...
I believe practices from the Longde series would be much more adequate.
Care to explain how prostrating 400.000 times, as an example, contributes to getting rid of doubt about having recognized one's primordial state? Or offering a similar gazillion number of mandalas, refuge prayers and the whole accumulations. Just curious to know how you reconcile this. It's not that I'm being limited. It seems to me that you would be using a spoon to pierce through a concrete wall instead of a power drill, that's all.

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:15 am

I just want to know the TRUTH. I don't understand why anyone should have to "bend over backwards" to find what is their right to know....it's their birthright. If your nature is natural, why do you have to do unnatural contrived rituals before the TRUTH can be revealed ?
When I was a fresh student...in love with learning about Buddhism, my faith was unbounded,
I was devoted 24/7 in my heart for many many years....but just thinking about doing all those prostrations,etc., turned me off. I feel like I'm doing a different kind of ngondro..working for this Indian family...lol Kinda like what Milarepa did , but not even close to the harshness he experienced....so there are non traditional Ngondros...no ?
Isn't the purpose of Ngondro to purify negative karma ? Aren't there other methods for people like me that balk at traditional Ngondro ? Also, I have faith that other methods, such as reading certain Buddhist transmissions, have powerful effects on those with pure faith, and that in itself clears up eons of negative karma.....preparing you for a direct introduction to the nature of your mind. So you see, I am very good at fooling myself !
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:37 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:13 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby heart » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:49 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

mutsuk
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:10 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:54 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:06 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:44 pm

One main Bönpo Dzogchen text, Heart Drops of Dharmakaya by Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen and Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, does not say anything about having to do Ngondro at all. This text does present the practice of Rushen as necessary before Trekcho and Thogal however (Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says to not try Thogal without proper instructions; so as students of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, we should not try the Thogal practices on our own if we read this book).
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:01 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:02 pm

Closed for fast cleaning. I'll remove off topic posts.

Update: reopened. Inflammatory comments and off topic posts were removed.

Carry on.

mutsuk
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:03 pm


mutsuk
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Re: Dzogchen and ngöndro

Postby mutsuk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:05 pm



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