Dzogchen and ngöndro

[Dechen Norbu]

Kunga was though. So context was important here. You could have been more clear. Otherwise it's easy to misunderstand what you were trying to say.

[heart]

I don't see why you put all in the same bag, Magnus. He may appreciate his work and yet disagree with him on this point. One thing doesn't exclude the other, like you are trying to associate.

Of course it doesn't, but I haven't heard much positive from Sönam about JLA, it is all very emotional for some reason.

/magnus

[heart]

Kunga was though. So context was important here. You could have been more clear. Otherwise it's easy to misunderstand what you were trying to say.

The word Ngondro is not mentioned in his post and I didn't take it as a Ngondro question as I told you. What is unclear?

/magnus

[Blue Garuda]

Most of this has nothing to do with the OP's initial questions and everything to do with what seems to me like sectarianism being born as opposed to a celebration of non-sectarian diversity in paths to discovering the same nature.

That's probably a wrong conclusion, but that's the impression you guys are giving me, and probably others new to this who would now have no idea if Dzogchen requires Ngondro, even if they knew what that was, and just run a mile at seeing the bickering.

Nobody seems interested in the idea of using FAQ or sticky threads to lay out the various options, as a couple of us have suggested - it's just the usual heads down and horns locked because my Guru's right and your Guru's wrong.

Maybe Dzogchen is warming up to a Karmapa-style fissure, or an HHDL-style Gelugpa maelstrom.

Either way, this is really disappointing and a real turn-off, especially as every thread seems infected with the same f'ing issues.

[Dechen Norbu]

I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam

My impression is that he thinks serious Dzogchen practitioners should do the preliminaries, so he probably think you are serious then Sönam.

/magnus

This notion of "serious" is for me imaginary

Sönam

I agree. More, this whole notion of "serious practitioner" reeks to ego mania, Sonam.
People have many different circumstances. For some people with a very complicated life, perhaps doing Guru Yoga as much as they can and trying to be present means taking Dzogchen practice very seriously.
Nobody can define what is a serious practitioner based only on performing or not a determinate set of accumulations. We all live under different constraints. So saying someone is not a serious Dzogchen practitioner based on that can't be taken seriously. I see it as a shallow and narrow assessment from someone who has more possibilities than most.

[heart]

This notion of "serious" is for me imaginary

Sönam

but you are just that no?

/magnus

[Dechen Norbu]

Kunga was though. So context was important here. You could have been more clear. Otherwise it's easy to misunderstand what you were trying to say.

The word Ngondro is not mentioned in his post and I didn't take it as a Ngondro question as I told you. What is unclear?

/magnus

That's what we were discussing.

[Sönam]

I'm definitely ok with that ... what I disagree with is when one says preliminaries are mandatory (which is the case of JLA)

Sönam

Well they are mandatory if JLA is your teacher maybe, but he is not right? You should really rejoice in all the wonderful translations he are doing for french speaking people and support and encourage him instead of fighting him. He is a very serious Dzogchen practitioner a great scholar and translator and he been at this for long time, what is the problem?

/magnus

Come on Magnus, I never start an observation on this point with JLA without recalling how much I am gratefull for the translations he mades in French ... that give him the label of a great scholar and translator, and in this term I respect him. As I told you I don't know precisely what "serious" for a practitioner with Dzogchen really means ... it's in fact very confusing. But when he takes "straight" positions about the necessity of doing many preliminaries and a lot of retreats before you even can receive DI, I fully disagree. And when he is so certain of his rightness that he even "cut" any discussion about to the point he is able to say that what ChNN says in an open retreat is different that what he says in private, as he tolds me, I have difficulties with it. Then I think ... One can be a great scholar, but he is not necessary a great dzogchenpa. Sorry if it cause you troubles, And I'm not some one to keep my tongue in my pocket if I see something that does not fit, and certainly not when someone give me a non-answer, a shut the door to any further conversation.

I have no problem ... hope you don't have any.
Sönam

[Sönam]

This notion of "serious" is for me imaginary

Sönam

but you are just that no?

/magnus

If ever I had some qualities, serious would not be one of mine ...

Sönam

[Dechen Norbu]

Most of this has nothing to do with the OP's initial questions and everything to do with what seems to me like sectarianism being born as opposed to a celebration of non-sectarian diversity in paths to discovering the same nature.

You are mostly right.
It has only a tangential connection. But you see, if someone is looking for Dzogchen and instead of finding it directly, gazillions of accumulations are shoved down his throat as indispensable for its practice, that may also be a big turn off. I believe that person has the right to know that not every teacher has this opinion.

That's probably a wrong conclusion, but that's the impression you guys are giving me, and probably others new to this who would now have no idea if Dzogchen requires Ngondro, even if they knew what that was, and just run a mile at seeing the bickering.

I can imagine someone leaving here, all set to go and practice Dzogchen thinking that he "only" needs to do ngöndro for such to happen. I imagine his surprise when he discovers he is expected to perform 100k or 400 k x all the accumulations before he actually practices Dzogchen. Perhaps what is seen as bickering should be pointed as clarification. It's not bickering. It's presenting two different opinions about Dzogchen practice.

Nobody seems interested in the idea of using FAQ or sticky threads to lay out the various options, as a couple of us have suggested - it's just the usual heads down and horns locked because my Guru's right and your Guru's wrong.

Well only Admins can stick topics, so take it to them. But I don't think this is a matter of my Guru is right and yours isn't. It's much bigger than that.

Maybe Dzogchen is warming up to a Karmapa-style fissure, or an HHDL-style Gelugpa maelstrom.

I don't believe so. These discussions are common in virtual boards like this, but have little or no impact elsewhere.

Either way, this is really disappointing and a real turn-off, especially as every thread seems infected with the same f'ing issues.

I'm sorry if you feel this way. It's indeed a shame that this subject turns up each time Dzogchen is discussed. Perhaps it's because each time someone speaks about Dzogchen, someone else comes running and cautioning or hinting that this or that approach is mandatory, when in fact it isn't. It depends on the teacher and the practitioner.

[Virgo]

To get you there is also dependent upon the preliminaries which is certainly applicable for Westley' s level of understanding.

And how do you know what is or is not applicable for Wesley?


Kevin

[Lhug-Pa]

Wait a minute, when we say "preliminaries", are we talking about Ngondro or Rushan?

Ngondro is Tantrayana, Rushen is Mahasandhi (Dzogchen).

[Blue Garuda]

Wait a minute, when we say "preliminaries", are we talking about Ngondro or Rushan?

Ngondro is Tantrayana, Rushen is Mahasandhi (Dzogchen).

Anyway, about the earlier mentioning of making the connection via webcast...

After reading more of The Supreme Source (Kunjed Gyalpo), particularly the part about who are fit vessels to receive the Dzogchen teaching and who is not fit to receive it; I wonder if everyone who attends the webcasts with the intention to receive Direct Introduction, actually makes the connection. I don't doubt that one can make the connection via webcast; however what happens if someone is unsure and has no means to meet Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche or Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in person in order to verify if they have made the connection or not?

If they think they made the connection but didn't, and then try to practice, that could cause some potentially serious problems.

If they did make the connection, yet they're not totally sure if they made the connection, and therefore give up on even practicing the Rushens out of doubt, then they would be breaking their Samaya by giving up on practicing, that is if they drop the practice of Dzogchen altogether.

Simpler than that, I would think.

First Statement of Garab Dorje.

Yes, it is correct.
or
No, you need preliminaries of some sort.

Now repeat, a dozen times, in different words, on every Dzogchen thread, until someone realises that the debate cannot end up in a compromise so is pointless - and almost always an off-topic way to derail a thread which has nothing to do with this issue.

There, now I've added to it. Damn!

[Lhasa]

Maybe it's not well known but both ChNN and Tenzin Rinpoche read their emails. If someone questions whether they've made the connection they can contact the teacher directly.

[Dechen Norbu]

Hi fellows.

I'm creating this topic for the purpose of discussing the role of ngöndro in Dzogchen practice.
This will be the proper topic for such discussion to occur, which means that posts related with it in other topics will me moved here.

By taking this action, I hope we can keep other topics about Dzogchen cleaner, since this subject has been generating some heated exchanges that end up permeating most topics.

I won't move past posts here as that would mean a herculean work and I don't have that much time available, but in the future this is the go to topic for this subject.
Last, but not least, I would like to thank Blue Garuda for this excellent suggestion.

Best wishes,

DN

EDIT: as the subject was being debated somewhere else, completely off topic, I moved a few posts here to get the ball rolling. By merging them, those made prior to this post were added before, but that's ok.

[heart]

Come on Magnus, I never start an observation on this point with JLA without recalling how much I am gratefull for the translations he mades in French ... that give him the label of a great scholar and translator, and in this term I respect him. As I told you I don't know precisely what "serious" for a practitioner with Dzogchen really means ... it's in fact very confusing. But when he takes "straight" positions about the necessity of doing many preliminaries and a lot of retreats before you even can receive DI, I fully disagree. And when he is so certain of his rightness that he even "cut" any discussion about to the point he is able to say that what ChNN says in an open retreat is different that what he says in private, as he tolds me, I have difficulties with it. Then I think ... One can be a great scholar, but he is not necessary a great dzogchenpa. Sorry if it cause you troubles, And I'm not some one to keep my tongue in my pocket if I see something that does not fit, and certainly not when someone give me a non-answer, a shut the door to any further conversation.

I have no problem ... hope you don't have any.
Sönam

None at all. Don't read french so I missed your discussions. But I have never heard JLA say that you need to do preliminaries before direct introduction. I know a little about his life and he went straight for Dzogchen and he certainly got direct introduction before doing any practices at all. At least that is my impression.

And if your not serious you are certainly at least very dedicated.

/magnus

[heart]

Simpler than that, I would think.

First Statement of Garab Dorje.

Yes, it is correct.
or
No, you need preliminaries of some sort.

Now repeat, a dozen times, in different words, on every Dzogchen thread, until someone realises that the debate cannot end up in a compromise so is pointless - and almost always an off-topic way to derail a thread which has nothing to do with this issue.

There, now I've added to it. Damn!

Well, the way I am trained Ngondro comes after direct introduction, so go figure.

/magnus

[Dechen Norbu]

The question is, did you recognize your natural state when you received direct introduction?
Just saying "oh I received DI and then I went to do ngöndro" solves nothing. The matter here is if you recognized your primordial state. If you did, why did you went to do ngöndro instead of proceeding for the second statement of Garab Dorje, "do not remain in doubt", and practice accordingly? If you didn't, are you sure ngöndro will help you recognizing your natural state? Because I very much doubt that.

[Dechen Norbu]

You don't need to answer Magnus. When I say "you", in the post above, I am talking in general. Your practice is your practice and I have nothing to do with it.

[Lhug-Pa]

...are you sure ngöndro will help you recognizing your natural state?

I'll bet that it very well could.

Nevertheless, unless your Guru specifically tells you to do Ngondro, why do Ngondro when there are Rushens? (the latter of which are more direct)