some questions about dzogchen

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some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:53 am

a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?
b) Is it Tibetan?
c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Josef » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:43 am

A) yes
B) no
C) guru yoga
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:20 am

Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?
b) Is it Tibetan?
c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks.


a) It isn't that easy to even get Dzogchen instructions to start with since normally you need to a personal relation with a Dzogchen Guru. Some people find Dzogchen very easy some find it quite confusing. ChNNR gives Dzogchen instructions openly by webcast which seems very flexible and easy but there is no way to know if you connect with him.

b) It been practiced in Tibet for 1000 years so it has a Tibetan flavor in many ways but its origins are according tradition in India/Oddiyana.

c) the main practice is to rest in the natural state, the nature of mind, constantly. There are a lot of different meditation methods to help you get there, for example Guru Yoga.
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:07 am

Someone has recently posted that interview ... it could offer a good synthesis of pov ... http://www.rangjung.com/authors/tulku_urgyen_rinpoche-interview.htm

Q: What is the basic outline of practice according to the Dzogchen path?

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoché: All the Buddha's teachings are contained within nine gradual vehicle of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit [and the Great Perfection in English]. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the shravaka vehicle. So when we say "perfect" or "complete" it means that all the lower yanas are perfected or completely contained within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen.

Usually we say that Dzogchen, sometimes called Ati Yoga, is a Dharma tradition but actually it is just the state of one's mind, basically.

When it comes to combining these following two points into actual experience, we can use the statement of the 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje, "It is not existent as even the buddhas have not seen it." This means that the basic state of mind is not something that exists in a concrete way; even the buddhas of the three times have never perceived it. "It is not non-existent as it is the basis for both samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, it is the middle path of unity." Contradiction is like having fire and water on the same plate. Its impossible. But that is not the case here. The basic nature is neither existent nor non-existent - these two are an indivisible unity. "May I perceive the mind nature free from extremes." Usually when we say "is" it contradicts "is not." And when we say "non-existent" it contradicts "existent." But this middle path of unity is devoid of such contradiction. When it is said "to attain the unified state of Vajradhara," that actually refers to what I discussed here.

This unity of being empty and cognizant is the state of mind of all sentient beings. There is nothing special about that. A practitioner should encompass that with "a core of awareness." That is the path of practice. Again, "the unity of being empty and cognizant with a core of awareness."

The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows: "Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through." This view is actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality of Dzogchen is what is called "The spontaneously present nature is Togal, Direct Crossing." The unity of these two, Cutting Through and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That's it.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:02 pm

There's a new topic for the discussion this issue here

As the OP's questions were answered and then the topic derailed completely, it will be locked and cleaned.

Update: Topic reopened. Off topic posts moved here.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:15 pm

a) So its about realizing the true nature of yourself in your natural state? Something like that.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:41 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:a) So its about realizing the true nature of yourself in your natural state of existence? Something like that.


It's more like; this experience of being a separately existing physical human being, living in a physical world, suffering and so on, is due to the fact that we actually misunderstand the nature of this "reality". We take it to be something it isn't, and due to that error, we suffer. So dzogchen says this error is an illusion of our own making. We create this error through ignorance of the true state of ourselves and experience itself. The dharma as a whole is a means to experientially discover the illusion (first hand), and through seeing the illusion for what it is, it's immediately disabled. Some teachings are more direct than others, but no matter which method you employ, in the end, the direct discovery that it's an illusion is liberation.

So let's say (as a metaphor) that the ignorance(which obscures one's true nature) is a tree. In the leaves/branches of the tree are all sorts of things, just as in life there are all sorts of happenings and experiences. However we usually metaphorically always live our lives in the branches of the tree(ignorance) and because of that we suffer. Other aspects of the buddhadharma also say that the tree is equal to ignorance, but in some cases they appear to teach that one needs to begin dismantling the tree(ignorance) by sawing off it's branches one by one. Some teach that you need to get to the root of the tree(ignorance) and sever it there, but their directions to get to the root aren't so clear. In dzogchen the teacher begins by directly showing you the root, and he says "now here is your saw, when you cut through this root, the whole of ignorance will wither and die, begin sawing".

And the funny thing is that even the notion of sawing through the root is too much, the guru actually attempts to show you the illusory nature of both the tree(ignorance), and "the one who would do the sawing" right off the bat. But for some sawing at the root is needed, and that is appropriate. For others, sawing off the branches one by one is needed, and that is also appropriate. And still for others, plucking the leaves off one by one is needed, and that is appropriate. Some methods are quicker than the others, but ultimately they're all means to the same end. It all comes down to understanding the nature of the tree(ignorance), and understanding the quickest way to remove it. The fastest way is seeing that both you and the tree are illusory, but only a rare individual perceives that right away. Most have some work to do, and that's completely appropriate and perfectly ok, (we have to work within our respective circumstances). Though in that instance one needs to decide whether they want to pluck leaves, or saw at the root.
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:a) So its about realizing the true nature of yourself in your natural state? Something like that.


Realizing the true nature of yourself ... yes, and it's something the self cannot imagine.

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:08 pm

In that case, if I go to certain people and start asking them about the difference between fiction and non-fiction - -what's real and not real- I'm going to get different opinions?..
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:In that case, if I go to certain people and start asking about them about the difference between fiction and non-fiction - what's real and not real you are going to arrive at different conclusions?..


It's not intellectual.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:29 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:In that case, if I go to certain people and start asking about them about the difference between fiction and non-fiction - what's real and not real you are going to arrive at different conclusions?..


It's not intellectual.


Wouldn't the intellectual part be one of the functions of the dharma?..
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby asunthatneversets » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:03 pm

Wesley1982 wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:In that case, if I go to certain people and start asking about them about the difference between fiction and non-fiction - what's real and not real you are going to arrive at different conclusions?..


It's not intellectual.


Wouldn't the intellectual part be one of the functions of the dharma?..


Yes but the actual essence cannot be apprehended with the intellect, only pointed to. So discussing what is considered fiction or non-fiction with someone really has no value when it comes to the fiction of our ignorance vs. the non-fiction of liberation. The natural state actually transcends all notions including fiction and non-fiction. It also transcends the four extremes of (1)existence, (2)nonexistence, (3)both existence/nonexistence, and (4)neither existence/nonexistence. So in other words attempting to truly understand it with our ideas and concepts is impossible. You have to know it innately, like you know you're alive right now.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:19 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Yes but the actual essence cannot be apprehended with the intellect, only pointed to. So discussing what is considered fiction or non-fiction with someone really has no value when it comes to the fiction of our ignorance vs. the non-fiction of liberation. The natural state actually transcends all notions including fiction and non-fiction. It also transcends the four extremes of (1)existence, (2)nonexistence, (3)both existence/nonexistence, and (4)neither existence/nonexistence. So in other words attempting to truly understand it with our ideas and concepts is impossible. You have to know it innately, like you know you're alive right now.


Seems like a class in 'Metaphysics' would help. Also, where is the "Buddha" in dzogchen practice? There is no mention of 4 noble truths or 'Magga' path.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Wesley1982 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:33 pm

Didn't read this part of Sonam's post:

Q: What is the basic outline of practice according to the Dzogchen path?

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoché: All the Buddha's teachings are contained within nine gradual vehicle of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit [and the Great Perfection in English]. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the shravaka vehicle. So when we say "perfect" or "complete" it means that all the lower yanas are perfected or completely contained within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen.


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I really don't have that many questions :smile:
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