Buddhism & Suicide

[Adumbra]

Bzzzzttt... Wrong! You defintely, 100%, need somebody to love and to love you. Without a doubt! A loving sexual relationship will probably change your mind about a lot of things

Ha ha ha. That's a funny thing for a Buddhist to suggest. Mute point though, since I simply have no sex drive. Besides, women are beautiful, but vaginas remind me of hairy mollusks. Why any guy would want to stick his thing in there, let alone his tongue is (thankfully) beyond my comprehension.... And no, I'm not interested in men either.

No doubt about it! I mean why would you want to be the cause of somebody's unwholesome mental state? Really

Hey, maybe I'm infuriating them because they see something in me they don't like in themselves which I will force them to deal with. Maybe enemies are just teachers in disguise... Face it, a nemesis will get you off your @$$ and keep you on your toes! They are just what a bored, apathetic person needs to perk up! And the difference is that, now that I understand this, I can 'love my enemy' in a way Jesus never intended.

[gregkavarnos]

Ha ha ha. That's a funny thing for a Buddhist to suggest. Mute point though, since I simply have no sex drive. Besides, women are beautiful, but vaginas remind me of hairy mollusks. Why any guy would want to stick his thing in there, let alone his tongue is (thankfully) beyond my comprehension.... And no, I'm not interested in men either.

Well, I tend to be human first and Buddhist later... Well, given your aversion of all things sexual then I would recommend a pet. And I am not talking about a goldfish, a lizard, or a canary. A dog or a cat would be the best. Something that gives and yet requires attention and affection.

Hey, maybe I'm infuriating them because they see something in me they don't like in themselves which I will force them to deal with. Maybe enemies are just teachers in disguise... Face it, a nemesis will get you off your @$$ and keep you on your toes! They are just what a bored, apathetic person needs to perk up! And the difference is that, now that I understand this, I can 'love my enemy' in a way Jesus never intended.

You are talking about intentionally generating a negative mental state Enemies are teachers but that does not mean we should make everybody our enemy. The rest of your statement is just an indication of your pent up sexual frustration and the fact that you read too many comics.

[Paul]

Hi Adumbra - you sound like you have some serious mental problems that need professional care. You do not come across as being at all well adjusted. I think you should really go see a doctor about all this.

[Stewart]

I don't doubt you have mental problems, but I think your biggest problem is that you are an attention seeker. You want everyone to get involved in solving your problems, while trying to make out you really don't care and are aloof to the situation.

It's contrived and pretentious, stop it, and if you can't, find someone who can help you break the habit.

[Ogyen]

a few things jump out in your writing... not calling you crazy or a psychopath, to me you're just a few internet postings, for all I know pulling all our legs with some made up story... but if you'r not...how you wrote shows a definite deviation from the norm in how people react to certain concepts, which is usually the first indicator of a different brain set up. No matter what, you do need a doctor to talk to, figure out what's up with you.

I watched an extensive documentary about people who have psychopathic brains, most often very ordinary people who are not serial killers or anything, especially if they were raised in positive environments - they've found that the positivity of the early nurture environment can offset the negative impulses that can generate from abuse, oppression, etc. and these people are perfectly functional human beings that can experience the kinds of things you are describing.

The very scientist who was doing the study actually conducted MRIs on his whole family because he discovered a series of violent behaviors in his family history. He has been studying the nature of brain psychopathy for a long time, and he was curious about the genetics of this psychopathic brain set up that was distinctly different in nature from the 'normal' brain. He went close to home and investigated, and found one brain in his family's series of MRI's that looked definitely the most abnormal of his entire family, in a perfect match to those of serial killers he'd brain-scanned.

Being a very intelligent man, married, stable, with a kind of scientific detachment towards much that was 'emotionally obvious' to others', he was amazed to find the MRI corresponded to his own brain. His brain pattern was no different than those he'd scanned on death row of some of the most callous and cold criminals known to our time.

Yet, he's a perfectly normal guy, with a normal life, his wife reports he does have a cold unengaged side, but having had nothing but a happy childhood, he channeled it into his work. He investigated further to find that psychopathic structures are found in the uppermost echelons of social governance, corporations, and so it changed the way he was looking at the brain structure. Not all psychopathic brains were psychotic killers, obviously... there was a consistent percentage people with this brain set up in the population and only a fraction of them were criminal - with the nurture to boost the starting nature.

It was curious for him to discover how the emotional structures of their drives around sexuality and self-image process differently, as if the key of their pursuit was essentially THEIR interest, not that of others. The key feature is you are your own focus and interest, pretty much solely. If you find you could blow off your grandma's funeral for a party and not feel guilt even though you might have cared about her (he mentioned honestly about himself how to him, he might because he did not feel obligation towards the dead grandma, but would make up for it later to his upset family), odds are you might have features of this brain structure. It's not a 'mean' intentionality necessarily, it's a literally a chemically different brain pattern that creates a different kind of personality with different needs from the brain that doesn't have this activity pattern.

The outcome is a more detached attitude in how you processes the emotion, so perhaps the pet might or might not be effective. People with this brain pattern will find that to be loved/and loving them back is more a duty, it isn't felt with the depth that is found in the more common brain pattern found. Another reason why the empathy levels are different and those who are en route as early serial killers torture animals. There's a different amigdala and hippocampus density and activity in this type of brain.

In reading what you write, as well as your choice of quote for a signature - a quote by Charles Manson, it reminded me of that documentary. You might simply elect to investigate why you operate the way you do and not try to put labels on it, OR try to find out why your reactions deviate from the norm. Your own brain chemistry might be something you need to work with. It definitely sounds like your ennui is rooted in a kind of easy life, you mentioned good relationships for the most part, just a peculiar attitude towards your self-image and sexuality that reminded me of this program I watched. Depression emerging from that, (cold depression mentioned earlier) will put that concept of suicide as this very un-emotional kind of option on the table where for another person, it's an unthinkable thing. This again reminds me of that study.

It was just a thought that struck me. Perhaps if you are financially comfortable enough and have sufficient time on your hands because you're bored, investigate it. Find out more about how to work with yourself, temet nosce. That's key to any progress out of whatever is making you suffer, in my experience. Even the psychopathic scientist concluded that all brain patterns can adjust positively, no matter the nature, the nurture is key.

[Adumbra]

gregkavarnos:
Well, I tend to be human first and Buddhist later... Well, given your aversion of all things sexual then I would recommend a pet. And I am not talking about a goldfish, a lizard, or a canary. A dog or a cat would be the best. Something that gives and yet requires attention and affection.

I have a chihuahua whom Iove very much and wouldn't think of abandoning. But of course, dogs rarely live longer than 20 years... It was the chihuahua who actually gave me the idea. He's very aggressive and seems to hate everyone except me: going out of his way to bark, growl, and nip at people and other dogs if they so much is enter his line of sight. The neighbor's dog, a toy-sized terrier, is the same way. Those 2 go nuts every time they see each other, barking and yipping like mad. It occured to one day that, while they may hate each other, they love to hate each other. If my dog couldn't look forward to yipping at the neighbor dog every day he might become depressed. The 2 are mortal foes, but they give one another a reason to go outside.

me: Hey, maybe I'm infuriating them because they see something in me they don't like in themselves which I will force them to deal with. Maybe enemies are just teachers in disguise... Face it, a nemesis will get you off your @$$ and keep you on your toes! They are just what a bored, apathetic person needs to perk up! And the difference is that, now that I understand this, I can 'love my enemy' in a way Jesus never intended.

gregkavarnos: You are talking about intentionally generating a negative mental state Enemies are teachers but that does not mean we should make everybody our enemy..

I get you. Hate is a bad thing so I shouldn't be going out of my way to provoke it in others. Perhaps the type of nemesis I should be looking for is not an enemy per se, but more like a rival. Someone who is jealous of what I do or what I am and wants to prove his/her utter superiority. I think if I had someone like that I might be stimulated to new heights of accomplishment.

The rest of your statement is just an indication of your pent up sexual frustration and the fact that you read too many comics.

Nah, I'm not talking about falling in love with my nemesis and having kinky, S&M, Klingon sex with them during a climactic battle scene (though that does sound interesting. S&M seems to be the only vaguely sexual thing that excites me). It's more like appreciating them for the amusement and excitement they have brought into my life.

Stewart:
I don't doubt you have mental problems, but I think your biggest problem is that you are an attention seeker. You want everyone to get involved in solving your problems, while trying to make out you really don't care and are aloof to the situation.

Damn it, Stewart, don't ruin it for everyone! Sure I'm an exhibitionist. But for every exhibitionist there are at least 10 voyeurs who want to see just how crazy a human being can be. Why else would the Jerry Springer Show be in its 21st glorious season and still be going strong?

Ogyen, I found your post very insightful. I too, watched that same documentary you cited, and was shocked. I've actually known quite a few textbook psychopaths in my life and never thought any of them could lead the productive life that doctor seemed to be leading.

While I definitely have some psychopathic personality traits, my desire to manipulate others (let alone hurt them) is, I think, significantly less than in even a 'sane' person's desire to do the same. I'm not antisocial, just asocial. But I believe this asocial orientation has a similar cause to the antisocial, which is a strong need for stimulation. Psychopaths get off by abusing drugs, torturing people or animals, and through manipulating others emotionally and power tripping on the sense of control it gives them. I'm more likely to avoid people if I can (since most of them bore me) and take up some challenging intellectual activity or if I do interact with people, I do so for the purpose of exchanging ideas or (as Stewart realized) shocking the bejesus out of them and observing their reactions.

Many psychologists speculate that the very cause of the psychopath's need for stimulation is their inability to relate with a person emotionally. A non-psychopath is easily affected by other peoples words and deeds. If a friend says they love you, you feel loved. If they say they hate you, you feel that too. Since the psychopath cannot feel love or grief the only thing left for them is the adrenaline rush they get from tormenting their prey, pulling a con game, or commiting some other antisocial action.

For the record, I do feel emotions, but I doubt they are the same emotions that other people feel.

Oh, and I just use the Charlie Manson sig because I think it's provocative. This man is more than a man; he's legend. In American culture he's an icon of evil (second only to Hitler) and yet he is capable of uttering such pithy wisdom. It's cognitive dissonance at its finest! I find it very amusing to repeat something that Charles Manson said to another person without telling them he said it; watch them get that 'aha' look in their eyes as if they've just gotten a zen koan, and then say: "We'll that's what Charlie Manson thought about it anyways..."

[Adamantine]

Have you traveled much, Adumbra?

And I don't mean in your own country: I mean, to India, Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Kenya, Morocco, Brazil, Peru, Iceland, Tibet, Sri Lanka, France, Russia, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Mongolia, etc?

If there is at least one place on this list you have NOT been to, then I encourage you to go, before you decide you are "bored" with life. Because if you have not traveled extensively, lived in other countries, and experienced vastly different cultures in an extensive way-- then you have no basis for deciding you know that the experience of being alive on this planet is boring. Just a saying. . .

[Adamantine]

Plus, I also think for someone claiming to be bored, your version of suicide is extremely boring. Why not embark on a ton of adventures, go to wild places where there may be some risk of violence or disease, etc. . and if shit happens, then you died having an adventure... You didn't just sit home and watch the clock stop.

[Adamantine]

Also, using this post of yours as a basis

I myself went from being a heavy meat eater (ate meat every single day) to being totally vegan over a course of 2 years. While I have since started eating a small amount of seafood and dairy again, the experience taught me how dramatically diet impacts both physical and mental health. Even now I wish I could be totally vegan and not explo

I believe it may be a good idea to try eating meat again for a while (in sync with your world travels).. 1. it will be hard to travel to all of those places and be a vegan. and 2. it sounds like your diet may be deficient for your personal needs. To be clear: I am a vegetarian. . but I am not a fanatic and I do eat meat occasionally when I feel the body needs it. I tried being vegan too with disastrous results. Everyone's body-mind system is different. You ancestors ate meat heavily, no doubt. Your body is conditioned also by their habits.. you need to respect that.. your cold-depression could also have some link to your extreme dietary passions.

[gregkavarnos]

I have a chihuahua whom Iove very much and wouldn't think of abandoning. But of course, dogs rarely live longer than 20 years... It was the chihuahua who actually gave me the idea. He's very aggressive and seems to hate everyone except me: going out of his way to bark, growl, and nip at people and other dogs if they so much is enter his line of sight. The neighbor's dog, a toy-sized terrier, is the same way. Those 2 go nuts every time they see each other, barking and yipping like mad. It occured to one day that, while they may hate each other, they love to hate each other. If my dog couldn't look forward to yipping at the neighbor dog every day he might become depressed. The 2 are mortal foes, but they give one another a reason to go outside.

So what you are saying is that you want to use your chicuahua (does he have a name?) as a role model for your behavious?

Oh, and I just use the Charlie Manson sig because I think it's provocative. This man is more than a man; he's legend. In American culture he's an icon of evil (second only to Hitler) and yet he is capable of uttering such pithy wisdom. It's cognitive dissonance at its finest! I find it very amusing to repeat something that Charles Manson said to another person without telling them he said it; watch them get that 'aha' look in their eyes as if they've just gotten a zen koan, and then say: "We'll that's what Charlie Manson thought about it anyways..."

I was considering the exact same thing!

[Adumbra]

I also think for someone claiming to be bored, your version of suicide is extremely boring. Why not embark on a ton of adventures, go to wild places where there may be some risk of violence or disease, etc. . and if shit happens, then you died having an adventure... You didn't just sit home and watch the clock stop.

You're right. Not caring whether I live or die does grant me the freedom to do whatever I damn well please. I'll have to consider than carefully.

What attracts me about starvation is that it takes a long time, so I have time to reflect on what I'm doing. Also, I know from experience that periods of fasting tend to dispel negative emotions, improve bodily health, and bring about a feeling of peace so, if there is anything bio-chemical about my desire to die, starving myself will alert me to it and save my life. The Jains, a minor religion in India, sometimes starve themselves to death (they call it Santhara). According to wikipedia:

Supporters of the practice believe that Santhara cannot be considered suicide, but rather something one does with full knowledge and intent, while suicide is viewed as emotional and hasty. Due to the prolonged nature of Santhara, the individual is given ample time to reflect on his or her life. The vow of Santhara is taken when one feels that one's life has served its purpose. The purpose is to purge old karmas and prevent the creation of new ones

Someone who takes the vow of Santhara gradually ceases to eat solid food, then only juices, then only water. This gives them time to confess their sins to their spiritual preceptor, ask forgiveness from those they have offended, fulfill any worldly obligations they might have and purify their mind with meditation. I'm not a Jain, but to me it sounds like a beautiful way to go.

it sounds like your diet may be deficient for your personal needs. To be clear: I am a vegetarian. . but I am not a fanatic and I do eat meat occasionally when I feel the body needs it. I tried being vegan too with disastrous results. Everyone's body-mind system is different. You ancestors ate meat heavily, no doubt. Your body is conditioned also by their habits.. you need to respect that.. your cold-depression could also have some link to your extreme dietary passions.

I took up eating meat again for a short time but did not experience any change in mood, just an increase in weight. I suppose what you say could be true (perhaps I just did not give my body time to re-adjust) but for me it is a mute point. Now that I know of the suffering endured by animals used for meat I can no longer participate by consuming it. If being vegetarian has a negative impact on my health then so be it. As Charlie Manson put it:

“You eat meat and you kill things that are better than you are..."

I've done things I'm not proud of and I've refused to do what I knew was right just to save myself. How can I have done these things and then presume to sacrifice the life of a completely innocent creature just so I can go on living a life that I scarcely appreciate anyways? I'm not coming down on people who choose to eat animal flesh. I did it for most of my life even though I suspected what was going on. But I can't practice or condone it anymore.

[gregkavarnos]

I would recommend you read less Manson and more "scripture". I am sure that some of the stuff in the tantric texts would make even Chucky M blush!

[Andrew108]

Dear original poster,
Suicide is an extreme. Are extremes really places where wisdom grows? Instead of seeing suicide as an action see it as a thought. What is the nature of the thought 'suicide'? Ironically to keep a notion of 'suicide' alive in your experience you have to keep on having the notion 'suicide'. Really if you just let the notion 'suicide' go by itself - not hold on to it and not work to keep the notion 'suicide' alive - then you have self-liberated the 'suicide'. Experiences are self-liberated. Nothing stays for even one moment. The concept of suicide has no relevance when all the time there is the self-liberation of experience. It's only when we invest concepts with solidity that they seem to become functional for us.
I don't think buddhism would ever say suicide is o.k and no one would really - and you know that already. But you seem to be mesmerized by experiences. Wanting to be a special case. It's hard when ego attacks ego. You just get a complex ego situation. But then the pleasure of letting the experience go by itself - that's a wonderful thing and makes life quite nice.

[Adamantine]

I also think for someone claiming to be bored, your version of suicide is extremely boring. Why not embark on a ton of adventures, go to wild places where there may be some risk of violence or disease, etc. . and if shit happens, then you died having an adventure... You didn't just sit home and watch the clock stop.

You're right. Not caring whether I live or die does grant me the freedom to do whatever I damn well please. I'll have to consider than carefully.

Don't take this the wrong way, --I don't mean to get into a Fight Club kind of scenario. I meant more that if your true motivation for suicide is boredom, the whole premise is not very well thought out. You never responded to the question about traveling to those places. If you haven't explored the world completely, how can you complain that life is boring to the point of ending your life prematurely? You need to really examine the situation and reflect on the fact that you probably haven't even experienced a fraction of what life has to offer. So your analysis is disturbingly incomplete. If you were to write a thesis about this I am sure no decent professor would pass you. So acting with finality on these shallow presumptions would be absurd. If you are attracted to Buddha's teachings... I am sure it is because he underwent a very thorough analysis of existence, and his own situation as it reflected the larger situation of beings in general, and then came to definite conclusions through a hard-won personal experience of "realization". I don't think you have even scratched the surface of anything comparable from your expressed approach to these matters. . SO I encourage you to actually do so. Put your theory to the test, before you act with finality on your premature conclusions. Try the billions of things you actually have never tried doing in this life yet. Travel to the billions of places. Don't due things that harm others though, since you have respect for the Buddha's analysis, --since he may be dead-on correct about karma and why would you want to create more suffering for yourself or others anyway! If you're not afraid to die then maybe get involved with an organization that actually could profoundly help others, and which may take you to exotic places--doing things which many people may not choose to do who are afraid of death: such as working for the red cross or the peace core, etc.

What attracts me about starvation is that it takes a long time, so I have time to reflect on what I'm doing. Also, I know from experience that periods of fasting tend to dispel negative emotions, improve bodily health, and bring about a feeling of peace so, if there is anything bio-chemical about my desire to die, starving myself will alert me to it and save my life. The Jains, a minor religion in India, sometimes starve themselves to death (they call it Santhara).

I find this idea also to be silly. People who fast to the point of starvation are known to become highly delusional, to have hallucinations, etc. and therefore the idea that you may become more coherent to the point that "if there is anything bio-chemical about my desire to die, starving myself will alert me to it and save my life. " is a certain fallacy.

Someone who takes the vow of Santhara gradually ceases to eat solid food, then only juices, then only water. This gives them time to confess their sins to their spiritual preceptor, ask forgiveness from those they have offended, fulfill any worldly obligations they might have and purify their mind with meditation. I'm not a Jain, but to me it sounds like a beautiful way to go.

Perhaps you should find a Jain forum to discuss this, however, this is certainly not a valid practice from a Buddhist perspective, and was never taught by the Buddha. The Buddhist approach is the middle-way, beyond extremes.

I took up eating meat again for a short time but did not experience any change in mood, just an increase in weight. I suppose what you say could be true (perhaps I just did not give my body time to re-adjust) but for me it is a mute point.

Maybe, but it takes months to change your diet and notice it's change on the body and nervous system. Recovering from depletion of any kind is not an instant thing. Anyway, there could be other deficiencies you are not aware of. You may want to consult with a nutritionist.

How can I have done these things and then presume to sacrifice the life of a completely innocent creature just so I can go on living a life that I scarcely appreciate anyways? I'm not coming down on people who choose to eat animal flesh. I did it for most of my life even though I suspected what was going on. But I can't practice or condone it anymore.

There's long threads on this, and I agree -I am highly concerned about the suffering of animals too. However, in our industrial animal-farming culture, more meat is thrown away than you can imagine. It is a mechanical system that is well-oiled. You personally not eating meat a few times a week from the super-market is really not going to save any animals. This is just a simple reality. There's many other activities you could take up that would be more effective to help relieve their suffering, but you couldn't do any of that if you starved yourself to death.

[Adumbra]

Don't take this the wrong way, --I don't mean to get into a Fight Club kind of scenario. I meant more that if your true motivation for suicide is boredom, the whole premise is not very well thought out.

I know what you meant. Don't worry, if I pull a Charlie Manson, no one will hold you responsible. Really, though, I don't think there is much I could do to cause any permanent damage to this world -- or any permanent good. Of course, there is always the motive for fleeting personal pleasure that some might give into such as a killing/raping/looting spree. But for me such quaint little atrocities hold no charm. My hatred, lust, and greed were all extinguished long ago. In fact, that may be part of my problem. I'm not motivated by typical human desires.

You never responded to the question about traveling to those places. If you haven't explored the world completely, how can you complain that life is boring to the point of ending your life prematurely? You need to really examine the situation and reflect on the fact that you probably haven't even experienced a fraction of what life has to offer. So your analysis is disturbingly incomplete.

It is true that I have not traveled around the world. But I have been around nearly all the U.S.A (including Hawaii), Canada, and the United Kingdom. I've also explored other cultures in books, through television, and by talking to people. What I see is that, on a superficial level, people are different, but on a fundamental level they are all very much the same.

For example. Every culture has its own idea of what it considers proper sexual behavior. Every sexual deviation you can think of: homosexuality, pedophilia, zoophilia, pedarasty, even rape is considered or has been considered 'normal' in certain cultures. And yet, all these cultures have also condemned certain types of sexuality which they considered immoral. Thus, I conclude that it is human nature to persecute certain sexual minorities and this will happen in whatever culture humans might create.

Another universally human trait that I don't care for is hierarchy. In every group of humans I have observed a pecking order with one alpha male (or female is rarer cases) on the top, a bunch of brainless peons in the middle, and a scapegoat on the bottom whose sole function is to be the lightning rod/punching bag for the group's frustrations. I can think of much more efficient forms of social organization than this brutal top-down hierarchy, but no one would listen to me if I shared them. Of course, there is democracy. But, as Benjamin Franklin put it:

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Certainly, there are some things I intend to see before I off myself. I very much want to visit Rome and Florence and take in the art there. I'd also like to climb a mountain and get a little skiing in before I die. There are also some hard drugs I haven't experimented with yet such as ecstasy and LSD. However, I am certain that these wishes will not take more than a few weeks to fulfill. And what then?

What can you offer someone like me who can go into meditation for a few minutes and experience the equivalent of a really good marijuanna high? Or can jerk off tantric style and experience multiple orgasms that could make the Marquis de Sade jealous? I'm capable of having a lucid dream any time I want and doing any thing I want, experiencing sensations so vivid that I cannot distinguish them from waking life. What does this world have to offer someone like me? It has nothing to tempt me with. Nothing to threaten me with. What purpose is there in living when anything I desire, I can have instantly and anything I can't have instantly, I don't desire? Life simply becomes a series of pleasant sensations that add up to zero. There's got to be something beyond... hedonism.

As for your suggestion that I dedicate my life to helping others, I must tell you that I have given the thought serious consideration and have even tried to put it into practice, but my experiences have been ambivalent at best. The sad fact is that most people are not willing to renounce the things that are causing them pain nor are they willing to accept that pain as the price of their attachment. And so they are unhappy all their lives.

Then there are the truly innocent sufferers. The starving child. The AIDS patient. The criminal. I can help individuals like this to an extent, but I cannot abolish the social and economic conditions which cause their burdens. Yes, I suppose I could dedicate myself to helping people like this. It would be a noble endeavor that would keep me occupied forever (I'm reminded of the myth of Avolikiteshvara). Maybe you are right.

People who fast to the point of starvation are known to become highly delusional, to have hallucinations, etc. and therefore the idea that you may become more coherent to the point that "if there is anything bio-chemical about my desire to die, starving myself will alert me to it and save my life. " is a certain fallacy.

Going without food for a week, in my experience, clears the mind and lifts depression like nothing else can. If, after a week's fast, I felt great but still didn't feel like sticking around here for another century, then any subsequent delusions from then on would be irrelevent. Going without food for 6 weeks might lead to delusions, but by then the decision to die would have already been made, so what of them?

You personally not eating meat a few times a week from the super-market is really not going to save any animals. This is just a simple reality.

I agree. It is simply an ethical principle for me. I don't want to participate in it, even if my non-participation does nothing to change the system. I don't really think there is anything anyone can do. As long as enough people desire meat to make the meat industry profitable, it will exist. Vandalizing fast food restaurants and killing those involved in the meat industry will have no net effect in the long run. Really, like so many industries that some find morally objectionable, it is a matter of supply and demand. The same case can be made for the war against drugs, the war against abortion, the war against child pornography, the war against war... It's all a lost cause and I hung up my sword long ago. But just because I don't oppose it doesn't mean I have to support it. Indifference is my 3rd option.

Adamantine, you've been a worthy nemesis.

[gregkavarnos]

What can you offer someone like me who can go into meditation for a few minutes and experience the equivalent of a really good marijuanna high? Or can jerk off tantric style and experience multiple orgasms that could make the Marquis de Sade jealous? I'm capable of having a lucid dream any time I want and doing any thing I want, experiencing sensations so vivid that I cannot distinguish them from waking life. What does this world have to offer someone like me? It has nothing to tempt me with. Nothing to threaten me with. What purpose is there in living when anything I desire, I can have instantly and anything I can't have instantly, I don't desire?

This list that you present as evidence of your spiritual success is actually a monument to your abject failure in your practice. You have taken practices which have as their core or central aim the dissolution of dualism and the destruction of the grasping at a self, and you have used them to further reify and reinforce the notion of self. You consider your apparent "success" in the techniques as springing or welling from the self, a MAJOR mistake. I take it you don't have a teacher?

Practising Without Ego-Centred Motivation
by Lama Gendun Rinpoche
One of the main defects of a practitioner comes from thinking, "I am the one who is practising, so I am the one who will realise this and that through my practice". As long as we think that we are the ones who practise and that any outcome will be because we made the necessary effort, we are completely in the wrong. Nothing will result from that except more ego-clinging and self-importance.

We should think quite the opposite: that everything that emerges in our practice does so thanks to the Dharma. All the qualities that appear are only because of the Dharma. It is only through the quality, the power and purity of the Dharma itself that something can change in us. This is the way all the great bodhisattvas have practised. There is nothing that comes from the individual — things emerge because of the quality of the teaching. It is through his relationship with the Dharma that an ordinary practitioner can transform himself and become a great bodhisattva. All the qualities that emerge in a great bodhisattva have nothing to do with the individual person. They are the same qualities that are to be found in all bodhisattvas, because they come from the same Dharma, they express the quality of the teaching itself.

We should be happy and think, "Now I have decided definitely to practise the Dharma, there is nothing else that interests me in this life, I want to dedicate my life totally to this. Whatever comes out of my practice is thanks to the Dharma, it has nothing to do with me. I am not going to take pride in the results as if they were mine." When we surrender ourselves in this way and just practise the Dharma with no speculations about the outcome, we completely abandon ourselves to the practice. We are not expecting something out of it. We abandon all attachment to experiences and results of practice and engage in Dharma activity. This is when true experiences and realisations can develop.

But first we have to completely give up this feeling of "I am doing something, I am getting results", always bringing everything back to the "I". If we do this, we are just nourishing the ego-feeling, which shows a lack of confidence in the teaching. If we have complete confidence in the Dharma, we no longer have any feeling of "I". We just do the practice, and then the Dharma starts to work and real transformation takes place. This is the only way that experiences and realisation can develop.

We can measure the progress of our practice like this. If we think, "I have practised and I have realised that", then the only result of our practice is that our I-feeling is getting coarser and coarser, so our practice is completely wrong, since the very purpose of the Dharma is to reduce the influence of the ego. But if we think "I am not a good practitioner, I have no real qualities myself", that shows that our feeling of "I" is growing smaller and more subtle and that we are becoming a genuine practitioner. A real Dharma practitioner is someone who is constantly putting aside his own benefit and concern for himself.

I also sense an unbelievable quantity of pride and arrogance. You know that here are six poisons: desire (attachment), aversion (hatred), ignorance, pride, jealousy and greed?

Being able to fulfil desire (as you state you can) is not the some as overcoming or transforming desire. No matter how much you feed these monsters they are NEVER satiated. You are going about things the completely wrong way (if you consider yourself a Dharma practitioner, if not, then go right ahead...).

Find yourself a teacher and stop jerking (both tantric and non-tantric) around. Time is running out and you, my dear Adumbra, have unfortunately been running full speed in the wrong direction all this time! Again, this assumes that you are a Dharma practitioner, if you are not please disregard everything I just said and continue (with a firm grip) to...

[AlexanderS]

I don't believe you when you say you've seen everything life has to offer. It seems to me, you've travelled through the intellectual sphere but have completely neglected the emotional side.

[Adumbra]

You have taken practices which have as their core or central aim the dissolution of dualism and the destruction of the grasping at a self, and you have used them to further reify and reinforce the notion of self... I also sense an unbelievable quantity of pride and arrogance. You know that here are six poisons: desire (attachment), aversion (hatred), ignorance, pride, jealousy and greed?

If you highlight all the Is and Mys in someone's ramblings you could make anyone look like an egotist. But yes, I'll admit I am quite egotistical. This comes from having a body with a centralized nervous system. I have managed to reach dissassociative states during meditation, but I must return to my body eventually if for no other reason than to keep it alive by feeding it. Being in a body inevitibly causes me to identify with it and feel that I am separate from all other bodies. I realize this is an illusion, of course, but I must at the very least behave as if it were the case, otherwise they would ship me off to the loony bin.

There are gurus out there who claim to be 'selfless', but I find that hard to believe. Maybe they are very altruistic and humble, yes, but that is as much as I will concede to them. Real selflessness can only come about through deep meditation and social isolation.

Incidently, this is one reason I wouldn't mind dying. With no skin to separate 'me' from 'not me', how could any sense of self persist? If my consciousness is merely the product of my brain, as the materialists assert, then it will simply be annihilated -- much like a flame that has run out of fuel. If my consciousness is something independent of my body, then I expect that without a body to focus on, it will simply go out of focus and merge with all-that-is; which will have the same practical effect as the materialist's annihilation. Either way, there will be no 'me' left to be egotistical and castigate you monkies for your primate foolishness.

I see no strong evidence for reincarnation. Perhaps these people who recall the lives of others with such uncanny accuracy have simply transcended their own peculiar time/space coordinates and have made the mistake of personally identifying themselves with the life experiences of another. As far out as this sounds, it seems more likely than the idea of a ghost floating above a couple while they have sex and then possessing the resulting embryo. It would also explain why so many people claim to have lived the same past life.

I take it you don't have a teacher?

I assume you mean a spiritual guru type? My desire for a teacher left me when I realized not one of them could demonstrate anything they claimed to know.

No matter how much you feed these monsters they are NEVER satiated

.

Ah, but they are. I still feed them occassionally out of boredom. But I really am sick of it all. As I said: there MUST be something beyond hedonism. Or else I may as well kick the bucket. I have no intention of feeding the beasties forever. What you seem to be suggesting is that I retire to a monastary and... do what? Meditate as I have been doing? But this time I won't be doing any of those fun meditations that get me off. I'll just be staring at a wall for hours trying to eliminate my sense of self. Sounds rather boring to me... and futile given that a sense of 'I' is endemic to having a body and interacting with other people who also have a sense of 'I'. The idea of living out the rest of my life with no sense of selfhood seems so bizarre that I have trouble even conceiving of it.

If I'm this body, but also that glass of water over there, then am I drinking the water or am I being drunk? Or if I am neither this body, nor this glass of water, then what is the purpose of the body imbibing the water. Or if there is simply no 'I' at all, as you seem to be saying, then neither the body nor glass of water can exist, since there is no one to percieve them.

I realize that 'I' am simple awareness, and that the things 'I' identify with are not the essence of 'I'. 'I' could fall, hit my head, and loose all memory of the experiences that 'I' have identified with up 'till now. 'I' could then have some completely new experiences, thus forming a different ego... Perhaps I would be taken in by a group of fundamentalist Christians like the Westbro Baptist Church, they would brainwash me, and now 'I' would be a very different person from the amoral hedonist that I am right now. But despite the dramatic change, this basic self-awarenss would persist.

Some people have multiple 'I's living inside them which is really just one 'I' that has compartmentalized its memories and identifies with those memories on a serial basis; it's called multiple personality syndrome. Some people really have lost their all memories, wandered away from home, and started different lives as different people (known as a fugue state). But in all these cases, the basic awareness of 'I' as existing and being distinct from other 'I's has remained. All evidence leads me to believe that 'I' is an experience that results from the hardware of the human brain functioning normally. A body with no sense of self would probably be a vegetable: alive in the strict medical sense of the word, but otherwise more of a thing than a person... not something I would want to pursue.

I would suggest to you that you give up this crazy idea of eliminating your selfhood. You can't do it for more than a few moments at a time. It won't happen until your brain stops functioning.

Find yourself a teacher and stop jerking (both tantric and non-tantric) around. Time is running out and you, my dear Adumbra, have unfortunately been running full speed in the wrong direction all this time! Again, this assumes that you are a Dharma practitioner, if you are not please disregard everything I just said and continue (with a firm grip) to...

I'm laughing with you, not at you.

Ah, you know this has actually cheered me up. So what if it all comes to nothing in the end? Maybe I should just dedicate my remaining years, decades, centuries(?) to making things as interesting as possible for myself and the other humans. Death will eventually catch up with us all anyways and if there is a God at least he'll be entertained by my shenanigans. He won't regret sending me down here, no sir. While you all will be going about your daily lives, acting responsibly and predictably, I'll hold up a bank with what is obviously a squirt gun, start a petition to have Charlie Manson released on parol, and perform my yearly NAMBLA fundraising campaign. All utterly pointless endeavors, I'll admit, but sometimes the means justify themselves.

[gregkavarnos]

There are gurus out there who claim to be 'selfless', but I find that hard to believe. Maybe they are very altruistic and humble, yes, but that is as much as I will concede to them. Real selflessness can only come about through deep meditation and social isolation.

And you've obviously met all the gurus that are out there, right?

I assume you mean a spiritual guru type? My desire for a teacher left me when I realized not one of them could demonstrate anything they claimed to know.

Refer to above answer.

I would suggest to you that you give up this crazy idea of eliminating your selfhood. You can't do it for more than a few moments at a time. It won't happen until your brain stops functioning.

Nobody said anything about eliminating selfhood. I talked about eliminating grasping to self as something independent and real. Anyway, how do you know what happens when the brain stops functioning?

It is obvious that you did not read the teaching by Lama Gendeun Rinpoche.

[Fruitzilla]

It is obvious that you did not read the teaching by Lama Gendeun Rinpoche.

Hi Greg,

I read the teaching, but like most teachings I read by Tibetan teachers, it feels like he's talking to a bunch of 12 year olds.
I never stop being amazed at what makes spiritual teachers treat their students as little kids, and their students treat them like infallible parents.

This may part of be what Adumbra means by "not demonstrating what they claim to know".