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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:48 am

heart wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?
b) Is it Tibetan?
c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks.


a) It isn't that easy to even get Dzogchen instructions to start with since normally you need to a personal relation with a Dzogchen Guru. Some people find Dzogchen very easy some find it quite confusing. ChNNR gives Dzogchen instructions openly by webcast which seems very flexible and easy but there is no way to know if you connect with him.

There are also other Dzogchen Masters who do webcam teachings and one of them is the Bon Dzogchen Master Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/14097793


b) It been practiced in Tibet for 1000 years so it has a Tibetan flavor in many ways but its origins are according tradition in India/Oddiyana.

Before 800 Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud (Dzogchen) was also practiced in Zhang Zhung. So a very one sided interpretation if everything is seen only in the light of your DC. :o

c) the main practice is to rest in the natural state, the nature of mind, constantly. There are a lot of different meditation methods to help you get there, for example Guru Yoga.
To get you there is also dependent upon the preliminaries which is certainly applicable for Westley' s level of understanding. But that does not make sense for DC followers of course.......

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Jacob » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:50 am

What you mean by saying there is no way to know if you connect with him? I think that if you met him and his teaching, you follow it, then there is conenction.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:17 am

regarding already answered ...

a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners? ... it depends on the beginner
b) Is it Tibetan? ...it depends on the observer
c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks. ... it depends on the point of view

Dzogchen state has no dependence ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:38 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
heart wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?
b) Is it Tibetan?
c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks.


a) It isn't that easy to even get Dzogchen instructions to start with since normally you need to a personal relation with a Dzogchen Guru. Some people find Dzogchen very easy some find it quite confusing. ChNNR gives Dzogchen instructions openly by webcast which seems very flexible and easy but there is no way to know if you connect with him.


There are also other Dzogchen Masters who do webcam teachings and one of them is the Bon Dzogchen Master Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/14097793


Didn't know that.

b) It been practiced in Tibet for 1000 years so it has a Tibetan flavor in many ways but its origins are according tradition in India/Oddiyana.


Before 800 Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud (Dzogchen) was also practiced in Zhang Zhung. So a very one sided interpretation if everything is seen only in the light of your DC. :o


That is true, forgot to mention the Bon Dzogchen but I know so little about it. DC is not my community Kalden.

c) the main practice is to rest in the natural state, the nature of mind, constantly. There are a lot of different meditation methods to help you get there, for example Guru Yoga.

To get you there is also dependent upon the preliminaries which is certainly applicable for Westley' s level of understanding. But that does not make sense for DC followers of course.......


Makes sense to me, but then I am not a DC follower. There are a lot of preliminaries and other helpful practices but the main practice is normally introduced already from the beginning.

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby muni » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:42 am

Sönam wrote:rDzogchen state has no dependence ...

Sönam


Movement is not dependent on stillness? Not a dependency (like sutra) of things but how can there be understanding of nondual? How are inner outer phenomena (me-body, others, thoughts, appaerances...) in nature? Can they ever been separated in union? Mirror-reflections not dependent?

Longchenpa: all appaerances/experiences is not mind but not other than.

sorry, Wesley, questions are for the dzogchen master.
Last edited by muni on Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:43 am

Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


b) Is it Tibetan?
Dzogchen doesn' t stem from Tibet. It has its sources in the ancient pre-Buddhist Zhang Zhung kingdom from before 800, but also Tajik(istan) and the other source is northern India called Odhiyana / Orgyen which is at the moment Pakistan. Both Dzogchen cultures did met each other since a long time, because along the 18 Zhang Zhung kingdoms was the Silk Road running.

c) What is the meditation technique associated with dzogchen practice? thanks.
There is no meditation technic as such we know it in Sutra and Tantra where we make use of objects. The meditation in Dzogchen is objectless and subjectless. We call it remaining in the Natural State. But that is too difficult at the moment to understand i guess so. First one should meditate with object and subject to get used to meditation or to be busy with the mind of karma. That will mean to get tranquil is here the start. In that tranquil State one can reflect the understanding about relative and ultimate truth. The emptiness of Mind etc . all what is studied.
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby heart » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:51 am

Jacob wrote:What you mean by saying there is no way to know if you connect with him? I think that if you met him and his teaching, you follow it, then there is conenction.


Of course, but for a teaching like Dzogchen some kind of special connection is necessary. The Guru have to able to cut through straight to your heart so the view don't become just an other intellectual idea. However you never know when that might happen, some auspiciousness is also needed. That auspiciousness sometimes seem to happen if you joyfully follow your Guru's advice and apply his teachings with confidence, but people are different so you never know.

/magnus
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Jacob » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:57 am

Ok, now i understand. Thank you for replying.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:11 am

KY wrote:
To get you there is also dependent upon the preliminaries which is certainly applicable for Westley' s level of understanding. But that does not make sense for DC followers of course.......


Heart wrote:
Makes sense to me, but then I am not a DC follower. There are a lot of preliminaries and other helpful practices but the main practice is normally introduced already from the beginning.

I am happy that there are persons here aboard like you, who don' t throw away usefull means like the precious preliminaries.
The main practice in Dzogchen cannot be reached, 1,2, 3, by persons with a low level of understanding, like for instance my mommy has. My mommy would need many preliminaries and basic teachings, before she could follow the main practice. This i would advice her because i know her well. If i would be too fast for her, she would get nervous and then she would never be in contact with Dzogchen matters anymore. Dzogchen would even become disgusting for her.
:rolleye:
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:19 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


...


I though that this discussion about preliminaries have been let appart ... should we go again and again for pages and pages?

Preliminaries are not necessary ... they are accepted as a part of individual limitation, it is not right to erect it as a must.

This was confirmed once more by ChNN yesterday ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:35 am

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


...


I though that this discussion about preliminaries have been let appart ... should we go again and again for pages and pages?

Preliminaries are not necessary ... they are accepted as a part of individual limitation, it is not right to erect it as a must.

This was confirmed once more by ChNN yesterday ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Yes i know after some time here aboard, the ChNN' s followers opinions, about preliminaries and that is very clear to me and others. We can realy follow it due to our collective level of understanding.

But sorry we don' t and cannot agree to this point of view at all. :jumping:

And i will show preliminaries for sure to all beginners as THE METHOD to get it easier and better understood.
My mommy in any case is 100% with this view very happy. :D

But sure there are others like you who don' t need that and that sounds very GREAT but only for you. Don' t project that on others who are NOT so GREAT as you all are. :applause:

So if you defend your point of view to others i /we, have the right to defend it like we know it.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:41 am

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


...


I though that this discussion about preliminaries have been let appart ... should we go again and again for pages and pages?

Preliminaries are not necessary ... they are accepted as a part of individual limitation, it is not right to erect it as a must.

This was confirmed once more by ChNN yesterday ...

Sönam


Yet another reason to have a DC thread for beginners as a 'sticky' with all this basic info on it. Maybe Bon Dzogchen schools could do the same. In that way a beginner could quickly read the information, access suitable links to info , membership and webcasts and subsequently examine deeper issues.

Only Mods can make a thread a 'sticky' so it stays at the top of the Dzogchen section. Recently we've had this 'beginners' thread which is starting to get into the old debate about preliminaries, and another where the discussion ended up about the financial management of DC.

If people don't mind asnwering the same questions and going round in circles that's fine, but there is a simple solution IMHO.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Blue Garuda » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:49 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
So if you defend your point of view to others i /we, have the right to defend it like we know it.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color][/b]


You see, instead of just disagreeing, a beginner may like to know what you are referring to here. Maybe try giving information rather than confrontation ? :

https://www.ligmincha.org/retreats/the- ... zhung.html

Better yet, start a thread explaining clearly what your form of Dzogchen entails, give some links and INFORM rather than seeking to PERSUADE in a vacuum? Again, it would be a good sticky thread for the Dzogchen section here.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby muni » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:53 am

"Is it Tibetan"?

The line is running through the Tibetan Dzogchen by master-student, master-student...even now there can be labeled American Dzogchen, this cannot be disconnected of Tibetan lineages, and the Tibetan lineages cannot be disconnected from their teachers ( rather deep devotion and respect was for liberating teaching) and those not from theirs.... (for example line runs not through the Bible)

Then recognized Dzogchen or our nature has no nationality but cannot be rejected neither (no "one" there to do so). These two, the finger and the moon cannot, should not be mixed or finger cannot be taken for the moon.

Everyone can already have been "met" ones nature but not exactly realized or seen like that. Also to be able to remain one need guidance by realized Mind(master) who invites you in same nature and gives guidance to remain.

Furthermore, rusty words: in honesty lets ask a master!

Only rambling!
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:11 am

This is not how the story went ...

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Wesley1982 asked a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


...


I though that this discussion about preliminaries have been let appart ... should we go again and again for pages and pages?

Preliminaries are not necessary ... they are accepted as a part of individual limitation, it is not right to erect it as a must.

This was confirmed once more by ChNN yesterday ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Yes i know after some time here aboard, the ChNN' s followers opinions, about preliminaries and that is very clear to me [b]and others
. We can realy follow it due to our collective level of understanding.
[/quote]


there is your bias: it seems clear to you, don't try to force "others" in your point of view ... limitations are mostly individuals, so do not speak about collective.

But sorry we don' t and cannot agree to this point of view at all. :jumping:


Who is we? ... we have had hundreds pages of dicussion about. Your way to express is biased ... not freed.

And i will show preliminaries for sure to all beginners as THE METHOD to get it easier and better understood.
My mommy in any case is 100% with this view very happy. :D


THis is your individual point of view, and your understanding of your masters ... this is not a general view for Dzogchen. But as we discuss about that, again and again to the point that it was nearly too much, the way you insist "THE METHOD" is nearly provocation.

But sure there are others like you who don' t need that and that sounds very GREAT but only for you. Don' t project that on others who are NOT so GREAT as you all are. :applause:


Let me have, for the demonstration, the same approach that you have : "But sure there are others like you who need that and that sounds very GREAT but only for you. Don' t project that on others who are NOT so GREAT as you all are. :applause:"
See my point?


So if you defend your point of view to others i /we, have the right to defend it like we know it.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color][/b]


No, I just said that we had long (heavy and touchy too) discussions about that, that we know that there is two approaches (progressive and direct) and that I feel a bit heavy to insist and insist on that point. You already expressed in that thread your pov, it is not necessary to underligne the way you do that your pov is "THE METHOD".

Be in peace and happy ...
Sönam


Sorry for the red letters, but because you still did'nt found the way to answer like everybody else to a thread, I'm lost in how to correctely answer to your answers ... so I choose red letters. Hope we can do better last time
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby rai » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:25 am

haha i think as Wesley reads how the Dzogchen yogis answer his questions he will soon loss all his interest in Dzogchen teachings :rolling:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby alpha » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:28 am

Dear people,

Please don't argue.
Be civil.
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby zangskar » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:03 am

Blue Garuda wrote:Yet another reason to have a DC thread for beginners as a 'sticky' with all this basic info on it. Maybe Bon Dzogchen schools could do the same. In that way a beginner could quickly read the information, access suitable links to info , membership and webcasts and subsequently examine deeper issues.

Only Mods can make a thread a 'sticky' so it stays at the top of the Dzogchen section. Recently we've had this 'beginners' thread which is starting to get into the old debate about preliminaries, and another where the discussion ended up about the financial management of DC.

If people don't mind asnwering the same questions and going round in circles that's fine, but there is a simple solution IMHO.

Yes, imagine if this was a yoga discussion forum, and every time someone asks "what is yoga? how do I start?" you get students from n different yoga schools arguing against each other. :)

As a casual reader of this forum, I would humbly suggest a F.A.Q. be made, which could provide brief descriptions of the views of different schools / gurus / lineages, and perhaps an acknowledgement that the term "Dzogchen" is - and will be - used by different schools to describe practices that of course have some common denominators but are not identical..
The F.A.Q. could make explicit what are common elements, and what are differences. And since this forum is full of enthusiastic people with lots of knowledge it should be easy to assemble one (maybe just by copy-paste of parts of old posts).

Best wishes
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:50 am

quote="Sönam"]This is not how the story went ...

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Wesley1982 asked a) Is it flexible & easy to understand for beginners?

No it is for a beginner not easy to understand. Therefore the preliminaries are inside to get accustomed to what is karmic mind or the mind of ego and the egoless mind which is Rigpa.

So it is a process of going from Karmic mind or the mind of ego, to the non Karmic Mind or the egoless Mind = Rigpa. It is like slowly seeing the bottom of a pond and the mud clouds are removed by the preliminaries. To stay in that clearness (the seeing of the bottom of the pond) that is the start of Dzogchen.


...


I though that this discussion about preliminaries have been let appart ... should we go again and again for pages and pages?

Preliminaries are not necessary ... they are accepted as a part of individual limitation, it is not right to erect it as a must.

This was confirmed once more by ChNN yesterday ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Yes i know after some time here aboard, the ChNN' s followers opinions, about preliminaries and that is very clear to me [b]and others
. We can realy follow it due to our collective level of understanding.
[/quote]


there is your bias: it seems clear to you, don't try to force "others" in your point of view ... limitations are mostly individuals, so do not speak about collective.

KY wrote:
In case you are insisting on Dzogchen does not need preliminaries , i will add the other possibility just as in case of my mommy. If you would write there ARE
2 POSSIBILITIES then it would be ok and then i don't see an enforcement here happening. But one sided Dzogchen informations here cannot be the case because it is a general Dzogchen forum. I will not put my Bon Dzogchen approach on the forum of Namkai Norbus Community. This because i know there is another way of approaching
.


But sorry we don' t and cannot agree to this point of view at all. :jumping:


Who is we? ... we have had hundreds pages of dicussion about. Your way to express is biased ... not freed.

KY wrote:
Yes we have had but for some others who could not follow that ta all, for their sake it is repeated


And i will show preliminaries for sure to all beginners as THE METHOD to get it easier and better understood.
My mommy in any case is 100% with this view very happy. :D


THis is your individual point of view, and your understanding of your masters ... this is not a general view for Dzogchen. But as we discuss about that, again and again to the point that it was nearly too much, the way you insist "THE METHOD" is nearly provocation.[/colo

KY wrote:
Both it is collective , Masters and followers and not to forget the others here aboard


But sure there are others like you who don' t need that and that sounds very GREAT but only for you. Don' t project that on others who are NOT so GREAT as you all are. :applause:


[color=#FF0000]Let me have, for the demonstration, the same approach that you have : "But sure there are others like you who need that and that sounds very GREAT but only for you. Don' t project that on others who are NOT so GREAT as you all are. :applause:"
See my point?


So if you defend your point of view to others i /we, have the right to defend it like we know it.

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color][/b]


No, I just said that we had long (heavy and touchy too) discussions about that, that we know that there is two approaches (progressive and direct) and that I feel a bit heavy to insist and insist on that point. You already expressed in that thread your pov, it is not necessary to underligne the way you do that your pov is "THE METHOD".

KY wrote:
Well the method is to bring people slowly to Dzogchen or fast. That depends on their level of understanding and karma. So it COULD be realised by TWO METHODS that is more 100% how it is explained. Si if you start with your point of view to put her aboard, i complete it with the other point of view, for those who could not be informed or did understood the before jungle of informations.

Hope this layout is better than the foregoing ones.



Be in peace and happy ...
Sönam


Sorry for the red letters, but because you still did'nt found the way to answer like everybody else to a thread, I'm lost in how to correctely answer to your answers ... so I choose red letters. Hope we can do better last time
[/quote]


KY wrote:
I like red letters :D


Tashi delek,
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: some questions about dzogchen

Postby Tara » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:12 pm

kalden,

Please try to use the "quote" function correctly. It is really hard sometimes to read your posts as it is not clear who has written what without having to refer to previous posts. The "quote" function operates in much the same way as the "color" function which you seem to be able to use. The "quote" function will not work correctly unless things like the brackets [ ] equals symbol = quotation marks " " and forward slash / are in the right place. Here is a link with instructions on how to use the "quote" function http://area51.phpbb.com/phpBB/faq.php?mode=bbcode#f2r0 .

Regards,
It's not a competition. It's a choice.
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