I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby duckfiasco » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:06 pm

The Buddha was an extremely skillful speaker. With everything he said, consider his audience, the style of the teaching, if it was in response to a specific question, etc... It's silly to take a single sutra as applying to everyone in every stage of their practice, let alone to use that as somehow characterizing the entirety of the dharma.

Also, as was said many times in the other thread, it's very easy to turn Buddhism into some fascinating new mental exercise to suss out and squeeze into our ordinary and deluded worldview. If you process Buddhism on an armchair basis, many parts will be hard to understand or appear illogical. The Buddha shared his teachings to help people, not to provide them with a series of new mental puzzles.

Basically, be very careful of your basic assumptions. They are not infallible or somehow objective... they're just a point of view like anything else :)
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby undefineable » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Humans, with their big sophisticated brains, invariably get a hell of a lot more out of life they put back into the universe. In other words, just being born human empties the karmic piggy banks.
I couldn't see the vid, as I'm on mobile internet for a bit, but never mind alcohol; what happens to, for example, the obese (which I've just seen a doc about) - In the UK atleast, breaking the 2'nd precept to the n'th degree just to maintain themselves is a course of action that's thrust on them by 'free' healthcare.
I can't *logically* see how it could be any other way, until we save ourselves from an irredeemably problematic reality by gaining enlightenment.

To sum up, 'no hell', even 'no life after death' seems to me to be as much wishful thinking as theism, spiritualism, marxism, or indeed the belief that natural justice can exist or is 'logical'. I'm sorry to be down, but this seems the place to do it(!), & I also wonder if I'm taking my logic too far, so do call me out if I'm 'off'. :thinking:
Having said that, core religious doctrines tend to be *more* peaceful than reality, but only Buddhism seems to sustain this across the board.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:41 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Ikkyu wrote:
I mean how can people ACTUALLY believe -- using logic and reasoning -- that there is ACTUALLY a place where you go after you die and you suffer horrible physical agony in such gory, explicit and specific detail? It smells like bullshit to me.



Not all beliefs are based on logic and reasoning. :smile:


That's for sure.
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-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:44 pm

duckfiasco wrote:The Buddha was an extremely skillful speaker. With everything he said, consider his audience, the style of the teaching, if it was in response to a specific question, etc... It's silly to take a single sutra as applying to everyone in every stage of their practice, let alone to use that as somehow characterizing the entirety of the dharma.

Also, as was said many times in the other thread, it's very easy to turn Buddhism into some fascinating new mental exercise to suss out and squeeze into our ordinary and deluded worldview. If you process Buddhism on an armchair basis, many parts will be hard to understand or appear illogical. The Buddha shared his teachings to help people, not to provide them with a series of new mental puzzles.

Basically, be very careful of your basic assumptions. They are not infallible or somehow objective... they're just a point of view like anything else :)


I don't understand what kind of masochistic audience would want to hear that they were going to be tortured after they died just for drinking some cabernet.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Ikkyu » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:58 pm

Jikan wrote:
Wesley1982 wrote:Its plausible that certain myths about Hell were spun from folklore and artistic storytelling.


Yes, I think that is completely plausible.


But the Buddha himself described these places in vivid detail.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby duckfiasco » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:44 pm

Your relationship with Buddhism sounds a lot like mine with Zen, where I'm simultaneously annoyed yet interested and attracted to it. I think this is significant. Find a quiet, private place where no one can see. Then let your guard down and just sit with some of these ideas and feelings you have. I've found it helpful at least :)

Best of luck :cheers:
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Josef » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:59 pm

Ikkyu wrote:
For a parable, this seems pretty graphic, specific and detailed.
I know you don't dig sutras, but they ARE Buddhavacana, even among the Vajrayana. As a Buddhist don't you have to accept them as true?


Nope.
Not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:23 am

Ikkyu wrote:Is the deep fear of going to Hell from drinking alcohol, etc. just a Theravada thing?
No, it's just a Thai thing.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby jundo cohen » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:02 am

Ikkyu wrote:... I left Christianity because it was, for me, a bunch of fear-mongering and illogical drivel. I went to Buddhism because I thought it was really about ending suffering. How does fearing a very long, painful torture end our suffering? Isn't fear a defilement in Buddhism to begin with?


Well, liberation from "suffering" (in a Buddhist sense of that term, Dukkha) is still possible whether or not one believes literally in such places in the afterlife or not ... and be assured that not all Buddhists, Buddhist Teachers or Buddhist Sangha believe in such detailed descriptions. Although I consider myself a member of the "heck, anything is possible" school, I believe such stories are more likely the product of vivid human imagination by human authors and an attempt at control of peoples' moral by literally "scaring the hell" out of folks.

The Buddha is quoted as also teaching in a number of Sutra (probably by other human authors) that belief in these things is a bit like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed". To the child, the scary thing is made "real" and solid (to the child's mind) by his very belief and mental image, and when the child has finally seen through the "boogeyman" and drops his idea of the "boogeyman" ... poof, the "boogeyman" is gone.

Image

On the other hand, you and I have seen countless people create tangible hells in this very life, for themselves and those around them, by the abuse of alcohol and other intoxicants and the accompanying violence and such that often follows. I personally would not include moderate social drinking for most people, but for a true alcoholic, even a single drop is poison and a road to disaster.

Whatever comes after this life will take care of itself, but here is the pivot point whatever the case. I sometimes write this ...

If there are futures lives, heavens or hells ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

If there are no future lives, heavens or hells ... I will fetch water and chop wood, seeking to live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way).

I do not know if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell or allow a better rebirth ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.


As with the "boogeyman under the bed", by the way, one may be liberated from "suffering" by piercing and seeing right-through-and-through all the human thoughts and emotions we carry around like "boogeymen" ... not just this one.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Anders » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:21 am

Josef wrote:
Ikkyu wrote:
For a parable, this seems pretty graphic, specific and detailed.
I know you don't dig sutras, but they ARE Buddhavacana, even among the Vajrayana. As a Buddhist don't you have to accept them as true?


Nope.
Not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died.


If you're not a Buddhist, why are you contributing to a topic about Buddhist views here?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Anders » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:28 am

In regards to the OP, I'd say Buddhism is very much a peaceful religion. If I were to describe the suffering experienced by the victims of war, does this mean I am being un-peaceful? Am I fear-mongering by saying this happens to people?

I think you're getting a bit too hung up on the 'bit of alchohol' bit. No one here is actually saying 'yeah, that video got it right'. Generally, drinking is considered a morally neutral phenomena. It's part of the precepts because the heedlessness it can lead to has a lot of potential for less neutral actions.

But yes, there are things in life that can lead to rebirth in hell. Generally, if you are a good person with a bit of care it is rather difficult to end up like that. I'd suggest taking a chill pill before going all 'a bit of cabernet and I am having nails driven into my hands?!? Youtube said so!". Perhaps if you went to ask a qualified teacher these things instead of youtube, you'd get some better answers.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Anders » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:30 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Ikkyu wrote:Is the deep fear of going to Hell from drinking alcohol, etc. just a Theravada thing?
No, it's just a Thai thing.


This. And even so, I never met met Thais who betrayed much 'deep fear of going to hell'. The practising Buddhist Thais I've met were more focused on the good things they wanted to do than fear of bad stuff for actions they weren't much engaged in anyway.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby jundo cohen » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:46 am

Anders wrote:
Josef wrote:
Ikkyu wrote:
For a parable, this seems pretty graphic, specific and detailed.
I know you don't dig sutras, but they ARE Buddhavacana, even among the Vajrayana. As a Buddhist don't you have to accept them as true?


Nope.
Not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died.


If you're not a Buddhist, why are you contributing to a topic about Buddhist views here?


Hi Anders,

One can certainly be a Buddhist while asserting that "not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died", and also one can be a Buddhist without believing that everything in the Suttas and Sutras is true.

Gassho, Jundo
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Anders » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:59 am

jundo cohen wrote:
Anders wrote:
Josef wrote:
    For a parable, this seems pretty graphic, specific and detailed.
    I know you don't dig sutras, but they ARE Buddhavacana, even among the Vajrayana. As a Buddhist don't you have to accept them as true?

Nope.
Not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died.


If you're not a Buddhist, why are you contributing to a topic about Buddhist views here?


Hi Anders,

One can certainly be a Buddhist while asserting that "not a single sutra was written down until hundreds of years after Buddha died", and also one can be a Buddhist without believing that everything in the Suttas and Sutras is true.

Gassho, Jundo


Certainly. I don't believe the mahayana sutras were spoken by the historical Buddha Shakyamuni either, though I generally accept them as true.

Maybe I am wrong, but what I am seeing here is basically the argument "the sutras weren't written down for centuries after the Buddha died anyway, so I don't accept them as true." Which to me seems like a largely irrelevant opinion to offer on a Buddhist forum.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Ikkyu wrote:Wow. I was under the impression that Buddhism was a peaceful religion. Stuff like this is why I still have yet to take the precepts after a year and a half of study with a Sangha. I left Catholicism due to the doctrines set forward in which one is required to worship a God who punishes people with torture for their sins. Now, while I realize that in the Buddhist tradition karma is what determines rebirth, doesn't it seem just a little f*cked up that so many Buddhists think that if you get drunk you're going to Hell? I guess I'm going to the Blister Naraka, considering that I get wasted from time to time at parties. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I do. Now does this mean I'm going to Hell? If so, why the hell (no pun intended) is this religion somehow considered more peaceful and tolerant than Christianity or Islam?

I mean how can people ACTUALLY believe -- using logic and reasoning -- that there is ACTUALLY a place where you go after you die and you suffer horrible physical agony in such gory, explicit and specific detail? It smells like bullshit to me.

I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just dissapointed. I left Christianity because it was, for me, a bunch of fear-mongering and illogical drivel. I went to Buddhism because I thought it was really about ending suffering. How does fearing a very long, painful torture end our suffering? Isn't fear a defilement in Buddhism to begin with?

You may have a few misunderstandings there. Buddhism is a peaceful religion. It doesn't suggest doing harm as a way to solve problems. But if you ask a Buddhist if a wild lion can harm you, I'm pretty sure that although he is a peaceful fellow he will say that it it does. If you ask a Buddhist if jumping of a cliff will break your bones, I'm sure he will say yes too. What Buddhism isn't is a pair of pink glasses that states that if you believe this and that all will be fine in the end.

My opinion is that those depictions of hell are somehow metaphoric and intend to illustrate the great suffering we may go through due to the result of our unwholesome actions. It doesn't really matter if there are devils with pitchforks or not, but what we would feel if there were. Hells are not more or less real than the reality we experience right now. Whatever beings there are in hell are not more or less real than the beings here on Earth.

You shouldn't get wasted. That's bad for your health. However that alone is not a cause for rebirth in hell. We never know exactly what will lead us to a certain type of rebirth. Many factors, including previous good and bad karma and the circumstances favorable for the experience of certain effects will play a role.
We can't really know how will it be, but there's something we can do. If we use this life wisely, we can plant the seeds for having good effects. This starts right now. Dharma practice is not something that only pays in the future. The moment you start practicing is the moment it starts benefiting you. Live a good life, and I think I don't have to go at great lengths to explain what a good life is. It's a life with compassion, friendliness, caring for others and oneself and so on. This doesn't mean you can't have fun. Of course you do. But we must know when we are having fun or when we are damaging ourselves by drinking too much.
It's also important that you don't choose what things to do because you fear this or that. Choose your actions based on wisdom, not fear. Anyway, the ramble is long enough as it is, so perhaps others will give you further opinions.

Best wishes and have a :cheers: for me. Just not one too many ;)
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:19 pm

:good:


Will wrote:Mind shapes everything, so if one can only accept a 'non-literal' hell (whatever that means) fine. Just be glad you are not in the mind of an asylum inmate or a serial killer etc.

Further, traditional Buddhists have been to the Hell realms and experienced them just like the sutras describe. Was their hell-view shaped by their belief in the sutras or is hell an objective place? Irrelevant question to me - the suffering is totally real.

There is a Tibetan term (delog) that describes a person who can get into some sort of samadhi-like condition and go exploring the deva and hell realms. Anyway, these stories have been recorded in at least one book.

Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Delog-Journey-Rea ... 1881847055


:good:

It seems that many people are pretty skeptical about these kinds of Siddhis. But really, Samadhi, Siddhis, Dream Yoga, etc. are the only way for us to have direct experience regarding the verification of things that aren't verifiable to the physical senses.

This is why the Rishis and Buddhas have taught, so that we can be on the Path and verify these things for ourselves, instead of merely believing or disbelieving.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Ogyen » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:45 pm

Ikkyu wrote:Wow. I was under the impression that Buddhism was a peaceful religion. Stuff like this is why I still have yet to take the precepts after a year and a half of study with a Sangha. I left Catholicism due to the doctrines set forward in which one is required to worship a God who punishes people with torture for their sins. Now, while I realize that in the Buddhist tradition karma is what determines rebirth, doesn't it seem just a little f*cked up that so many Buddhists think that if you get drunk you're going to Hell? I guess I'm going to the Blister Naraka, considering that I get wasted from time to time at parties. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I do. Now does this mean I'm going to Hell? If so, why the hell (no pun intended) is this religion somehow considered more peaceful and tolerant than Christianity or Islam?

I mean how can people ACTUALLY believe -- using logic and reasoning -- that there is ACTUALLY a place where you go after you die and you suffer horrible physical agony in such gory, explicit and specific detail? It smells like bullshit to me.

I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just dissapointed. I left Christianity because it was, for me, a bunch of fear-mongering and illogical drivel. I went to Buddhism because I thought it was really about ending suffering. How does fearing a very long, painful torture end our suffering? Isn't fear a defilement in Buddhism to begin with?



If I tell you that getting wasted and driving home is a bad idea, and then you crash, is that threatening you with death? LOGICALLY, if you cultivate your mind a certain way, then it is vulnerable to certain states. Basic causality.

Many Buddhists don't think of hells as a place you go to as a 'bad person' for some punishment... but you're bringing yourself into a state of mind and experience that you come into through the very way you nurtured your own being. If you got really wasted and smashed yourself up, who did it? No one but you. Is the getting smashed up a punishment for being wasted? Not really, it's just a consequences of impaired functions. Same for hells. No one is threatening anyone with it, just pointing out, getting wasted and doing stuff you can't do while wasted might f* u up. That's pretty logical to me. Doing things that are karmically harmful have the same kinds of consequences, when you get smashed up, no one is punishing you, you kind of brought it upon yourself. On the positive side, you are also the one who can clean up the mess and get back on track. Great thing about impermanence.

The thing about dharma is it brings into full view just HOW responsible you are for yourself, and that to do so, you have to stop making excuses to give the responsibility to others or even put it on the -ism you thought was this or that. None of that matters. If you want to do destructive things to yourself, go right ahead. You'll be the one living with the castle or the rubble of your own mind. It's the same for everyone really. Hell is the rubble of yourself. Awakening the completeness.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Ogyen » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:20 pm

Ikkyu,

I forgot to add to my post: a (your) mom would probably give you hell about getting wasted and driving. In that case, she might threaten you with your own consequences, but is she threatening you with some authoritative agency on her part for doing it? No, she won't send you to any hell. She just doesn't want you to get destroyed in the process of making dumb decisions because she loves you.

In the same way, ze Buddhists might make one aware of the hells because, dude, WTF are you doing to yourself? Down to every action that produces karma, even drinking, like ... do you know what you're cultivating in yourself, are you aware? If yes, proceed along. If no, stop and think about it. It's not to give you guilt, it's to make you think. Which you seem to do a lot of.
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby Jikan » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:06 pm

Ikkyu wrote:
Jikan wrote:
Ikkyu wrote:How can you follow a religion which, while describing fear as a defilement, instills people with it by saying karma is the ultimate judge?


I don't. The Buddhism I practice isn't about intimidation or fear-mongering.

Also, how can you, as a reasonable, logical human being, believe in the existence of realms where people are punished with physical, real torture for their negative karma? That seems very illogical. What evidence is there to suggest that this is the case?


Describe the reality of those realms in Buddhist terms. are you familiar with the teaching of emptiness?


Sunyata or not, driving nails through someone's hands is pretty specific.


Yes, the text is describing a specific experience. The question is whether it's, ultimately, a real one or not. Again, you insist that Buddhism posits these realms as real, and object to that. I ask you again to describe that reality in Buddhist terms (emptiness is your hint). If you can't, then you're just trolling the board with a strawman argument.

Tell me, how do the experiences of hell realms arise according to any school of Buddhism (your choice)?
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Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with Hell

Postby dharmagoat » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:23 pm

Anders wrote:Maybe I am wrong, but what I am seeing here is basically the argument "the sutras weren't written down for centuries after the Buddha died anyway, so I don't accept them as true." Which to me seems like a largely irrelevant opinion to offer on a Buddhist forum.

This issue is highly relevant. Is there a current thread on this topic?
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