Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Nakedness

Postby oldbob » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:02 pm

Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.


:namaste:

With great respects. :meditate: :meditate: :meditate: :bow: :bow: :bow: :meditate: :meditate: :meditate:

It seems that Mr G /Malcolm allow nakedness, but not too naked. :smile:

I feel a little like the boy in the "Emperor's New Cloths." WIll the real nakedness please stand up? Is Mr. G's / Malcomb's nakedness the fine clothing of instant presence, and is that the approved policy of Dharma Wheel?

Since I am not, repeat not, a Vajrayana/Dzogchen Teacher of any sort, how could I be posting a Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instruction? This is different. I was not quoting from some ancient text. I just make it up as I go along. :smile:

This was not a Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice, it was just my "opinion" of what might be helpful in the face of death. This has to do with compassion and the human condition and does not relate to Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions, which are the short path to Enlightenment. It just looks like a Vajrayana Dzogchen practice because some of the same references are used.

My "opinion" was vetted by ChNNR; I sent it to him along with Long Life wishes on his birthday. He enjoyed it with no negative comments.

If anyone wants a copy, PM your email address and I will send it along.

With great respects,

ob
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Re: Nakedness

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:18 pm

oldbob wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.


:namaste:

With great respects. :meditate: :meditate: :meditate: :bow: :bow: :bow: :meditate: :meditate: :meditate:

It seems that Mr G /Malcolm allow nakedness, but not too naked. :smile:

I feel a little like the boy in the "Emperor's New Cloths." WIll the real nakedness please stand up? Is Mr. G's / Malcomb's nakedness the fine clothing of instant presence, and is that the approved policy of Dharma Wheel?

Since I am not, repeat not, a Vajrayana/Dzogchen Teacher of any sort, how could I be posting a Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instruction? This is different. I was not quoting from some ancient text. I just make it up as I go along. :smile:

This was not a Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice, it was just my "opinion" of what might be helpful in the face of death. This has to do with compassion and the human condition and does not relate to Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions, which are the short path to Enlightenment. It just looks like a Vajrayana Dzogchen practice because some of the same references are used.

My "opinion" was vetted by ChNNR; I sent it to him along with Long Life wishes on his birthday. He enjoyed it with no negative comments.

If anyone wants a copy, PM your email address and I will send it along.

With great respects,

ob



:good:
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:24 pm

Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.

Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Nakedness

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:25 pm

Pero wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.

Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.


:good:
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sönam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:38 pm

Pero wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.

Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.


I made only an answer concerning the position of the tongue in 4 DA ... but my answer was incomplete. It is not teaching ... that is not the sense of secrecy.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:57 pm

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.

Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.


I made only an answer concerning the position of the tongue in 4 DA ... but my answer was incomplete. It is not teaching ... that is not the sense of secrecy.

Sönam

It's a secret matter from a secret teaching.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sönam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:28 pm

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.


I made only an answer concerning the position of the tongue in 4 DA ... but my answer was incomplete. It is not teaching ... that is not the sense of secrecy.

Sönam

It's a secret matter from a secret teaching.


"In Dzogchen there is no rules, there is not a universal rule that corresponds. We are responsible of our self. We are working with circumstances" ChNN - 6/14/2012

_____
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Pero » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:03 pm

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:I made only an answer concerning the position of the tongue in 4 DA ... but my answer was incomplete. It is not teaching ... that is not the sense of secrecy.

Sönam

It's a secret matter from a secret teaching.


"In Dzogchen there is no rules, there is not a universal rule that corresponds. We are responsible of our self. We are working with circumstances" ChNN - 6/14/2012

_____
Sönam

Perhaps you should tell him that the next time he again says that we must keep the practices secret. :roll:
Or perhaps you should inform him that his own terma teaching is mistaken as it says there to keep secret as well.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:06 pm

Pero wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Off Topic post removed. Folks, please remember that this forum does not condone Vajrayana/Dzogchen practice instructions to be posted openly.

Then you should edit a post by Blue Garuda and another by Sonam (I think in the DC thread) too.


I don't read every post or thread. If you provide a link to the post, I will review it.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Mr. G » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:18 pm

oldbob wrote:...and is that the approved policy of Dharma Wheel?


Yes.

My "opinion" was vetted by ChNNR; I sent it to him along with Long Life wishes on his birthday. He enjoyed it with no negative comments.


Congratulations on the successful vetting.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: First Post: How useful is Dharma Wheel for you, REALLY?

Postby oldbob » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:53 am

SooYiMongSeng wrote:Label me suspect: But the moment I came upon this stop on the road (this http address you loaded in your web browser), I envisioned a really tight, neatly packed space with a lot of conversations going on all at once (limbs and peoples' heads sticking out of the windows, even)

...and as I stood outside the pit-stop I thought, "Wow...it seems really noisy in there."

Not that I am necessarily labelling this forum as "too noisey" by any standard. . . but I just have to ask:

"How useful has this forum been for your practice and or life... really? To what degree has this forum lessened your own personal suffering"

Yes, I am very curious to know.
Yes, I am new to this.
No, I am not an expert at -anything-.
Yes, I am very willing to learn, and hear all that all you wonderful individuals have to share. Every good, bad, agreeable and disagreeable anything.
Yes, I am proceeding with caution as best I can, with as most mindfulness as I possess at this moment. I'll try my best! End of disclaimers...


Hi SYMS,

Nature is noisy.
Some practitioners like noise.
We practice so we become the noise and it doesn't bother us.
Sitting in the city we become fire engines, traffic, neighbors loud music, and TV.
Some people run to caves and escape the noise of the city.
But then the rain and wind won't shut up.
Sitting in the cave we become the wind and rain.
So maybe it doesn't matter where you are, but what matters is that you learn to make peace with whatever presents itself to your mind where-ever you are.

Dharma Wheel posts are rude and kind and stupid and enlightened. (mine are mostly stupid)

Don't get excited. Like words written on water, it all goes away.

Do your best! Ask questions that will help your practice. Ask a question if you don't understand the meaning of a word that is used. Ask a question if you don't understand what they are talking about.

Don't stop asking until you get the answer that allows your mind to rest. When you are tired of resting you can enjoy the noisy posts on Dharma Wheel.

Try looking around in areas that are unfamiliar to you. You may find a beautiful butterfly or a bushy tailed chipmunk hiding under an avatar of the Buddha, or vica versa.

When you think you can help someone with an answer, chime in.

Just because someone says they are a Buddhist doesn't mean that they are enlightened or kindly or human.

If the old-timers give you a hard time you have to shout at them, "Hey OLDTIMER" remember when you were a newcomer", and then they behave themselves.

It is nice to be old because you have no agenda and can shamelessly make a fool of yourself whenever you want. Don't worry, old is not so bad.

Then you can make noise or shut up without any hope or fear.

Practice lessens my suffering. Noise is just noise. When Dharma Wheel noise is practice, it useful for life and can lessens my suffering too. When Dharma wheel is noise, it is just noise waiting to sing.

Glad to meet you here.

oldbob
Last edited by oldbob on Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nakedness

Postby oldbob » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:30 am

Mr. G wrote:
oldbob wrote:...and is that the approved policy of Dharma Wheel?


Yes.

My "opinion" was vetted by ChNNR; I sent it to him along with Long Life wishes on his birthday. He enjoyed it with no negative comments.


Congratulations on the successful vetting.


Dear Mr. G, all and All,

On "congradualtions" -

Since I have been hijacked from Naked, I will talk about Naked here - maybe they will hijack me back.

Everything depends on intention. I find that if I have a good motivation that everything works out. Otherwise I fall on my face.

You never know what a Dzogchen Master is going to do. Their frame of reference is different than ours. For us it is ropes and ladders, for them there is no playing board.

When approaching a Teacher there is no hiding place. You are not talking about chapter and verse, its the space between the atoms. This is the real naked.

Trust matters. Kindness matters.

The urban legend is that Yeshe Dorje, in muddy lumberjack boots and muddy blue jeans, stomped into HH Dudjom's presence and demanded teachings. He got them. Others never got in the door.

Everything depends on intention.

If you are sincere and have good motivation you will get what you ask for, and sometimes without asking. Defiantly not Kansas anymore. No hope no fear is a good target to aim for.

Perseverance furthers,

and the Wheel goes round and round.

oldbob
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sönam » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:46 am

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:It's a secret matter from a secret teaching.


"In Dzogchen there is no rules, there is not a universal rule that corresponds. We are responsible of our self. We are working with circumstances" ChNN - 6/14/2012

_____
Sönam

Perhaps you should tell him that the next time he again says that we must keep the practices secret. :roll:
Or perhaps you should inform him that his own terma teaching is mistaken as it says there to keep secret as well.


Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.
Does it inspires you?
In any group, at any time they are always been guardians of the temple ...

Good practice
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....

Postby Dronma » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:39 pm

Kind heart and open mind are prerequisites in any contact with other people.
Unfortunately, they are not both present in most discussions.... :roll:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....

Postby oldbob » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:21 am

Dronma wrote:Kind heart and open mind are prerequisites in any contact with other people.
Unfortunately, they are not both present in most discussions.... :roll:


Just a thought:

Suggested reading. I think that this is a great book to help us "Dialogue."

http://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Routledg ... 173&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Routledg ... 0415336414

Kindness matters.

ob
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Pero » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:33 pm

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:Perhaps you should tell him that the next time he again says that we must keep the practices secret. :roll:
Or perhaps you should inform him that his own terma teaching is mistaken as it says there to keep secret as well.


Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.
Does it inspires you?

So for you what he says is valid only at the moment he says it?
Secrecy is only sealed by receiving the specific teachings, membership has nothing to do with it.

In any group, at any time they are always been guardians of the temple ...

I don't understand this.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:27 pm

Sönam wrote:Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.


Hi Sonam:

While what you say is true, in general Dzogchen is not "secret"; ChNN also regularly reminds people that Dzogchen practices are not to be shared with people who do not have the proper transmission. "Secret" and samaya are different. "Secret" means that no one should know. Samaya means that you can discuss with people who have same transmission. "rgya rgya rgya" means that you should maintain the samaya of body, of speech, and of mind with regard to the teachings. It just means to take care to not share them with people who are not interested, to not think to do so, speak about them, or show them with your body.

̆But "samaya" does not mean "secret" -- it comes from two words "sam + yama" -- it really means "keeping perfect discipline".

M
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sönam wrote:Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.


Hi Sonam:

While what you say is true, in general Dzogchen is not "secret"; ChNN also regularly reminds people that Dzogchen practices are not to be shared with people who do not have the proper transmission. "Secret" and samaya are different. "Secret" means that no one should know. Samaya means that you can discuss with people who have same transmission. "rgya rgya rgya" means that you should maintain the samaya of body, of speech, and of mind with regard to the teachings. It just means to take care to not share them with people who are not interested, to not think to do so, speak about them, or show them with your body.

̆But "samaya" does not mean "secret" -- it comes from two words "sam + yama" -- it really means "keeping perfect discipline".

M


Thank you for precision ... also I don't think I have really made such a mistake. I don't think that to considere my short answer to someone having followed the concerned teachings could be considered as a failure of my samaya. Anyway I will try to be more attentive next time.


Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Nakedness

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:32 pm

Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sönam wrote:Rinpoché says different things at different moments. One take what he hears at the moment he hears it ... btw, have you noticed that the secrecy is only sealed by a member ship payement.


Hi Sonam:

While what you say is true, in general Dzogchen is not "secret"; ChNN also regularly reminds people that Dzogchen practices are not to be shared with people who do not have the proper transmission. "Secret" and samaya are different. "Secret" means that no one should know. Samaya means that you can discuss with people who have same transmission. "rgya rgya rgya" means that you should maintain the samaya of body, of speech, and of mind with regard to the teachings. It just means to take care to not share them with people who are not interested, to not think to do so, speak about them, or show them with your body.

̆But "samaya" does not mean "secret" -- it comes from two words "sam + yama" -- it really means "keeping perfect discipline".

M


Thank you for precision ... also I don't think I have really made such a mistake. I don't think that to considere my short answer to someone having followed the concerned teachings could be considered as a failure of my samaya. Anyway I will try to be more attentive next time.


Sönam


Hi Sonam:

I was not criticizing you -- I was trying to bring some clarity to the issue of "secret" as opposed to what is appropriate to share. I think in general people in Dzogchen confuse the idea with "secret" with samaya. There is very little in Dzogchgen that is "secret" unlike tantric practices. There are many things in Vajrayāna that are secret in a concrete way. But it is not like that in Dzogchen. So we are in broad agreement. I just wanted to clarify that while Dzogchen is not secret, we still have samaya not to share things with people who are not interested.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dharma Wheel on Dharma Wheel....

Postby Dronma » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:22 pm

Being aware whether we can talk or not and what it is proper to say each time, is a good sign of inner discipline.
However, an open internet forum which can be fished by anyone through search engines, is not a proper place for discussing specific topics about transmissions which are always sealed with samaya.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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