Interview with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche about Dzogchen....

[muni]

Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.


Q: What does Dzogchen mean?

R: Dzog, "perfection" or "completion," means as in this quote from a tantra, "Complete in one - everything is complete within mind. Complete in two - everything of samsara and nirvana is complete within this."

"Dzog" means that all the teachings, all phenomena, is completely contained in the vehicle of Dzogchen; all the lower vehicles are included within Dzogchen. "Chen," "great," means that there is no method or means higher than this vehicle.

Q: What is the basic outline of practice according to the Dzogchen path?

R: All the Buddha's teachings are contained within nine gradual vehicle of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit [and the Great Perfection in English]. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the shravaka vehicle. So when we say "perfect" or "complete" it means that all the lower yanas are perfected or completely contained within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen.

Usually we say that Dzogchen, sometimes called Ati Yoga, is a Dharma tradition but actually it is just the state of one's mind, basically.

When it comes to combining these following two points into actual experience, we can use the statement of the 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje, "It is not existent as even the buddhas have not seen it." This means that the basic state of mind is not something that exists in a concrete way; even the buddhas of the three times have never perceived it. "It is not non-existent as it is the basis for both samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, it is the middle path of unity." Contradiction is like having fire and water on the same plate. Its impossible. But that is not the case here. The basic nature is neither existent nor non-existent - these two are an indivisible unity. "May I perceive the mind nature free from extremes." Usually when we say "is" it contradicts "is not." And when we say "non-existent" it contradicts "existent." But this middle path of unity is devoid of such contradiction. When it is said "to attain the unified state of Vajradhara," that actually refers to what I discussed here.

This unity of being empty and cognizant is the state of mind of all sentient beings. There is nothing special about that. A practitioner should encompass that with "a core of awareness." That is the path of practice. Again, "the unity of being empty and cognizant with a core of awareness."

The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows: "Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through." This view is actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality of Dzogchen is what is called "The spontaneously present nature is Togal, Direct Crossing." The unity of these two, Cutting Through and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That's it.

Q: That is a very wonderful teaching. It seems like Dzogchen is very direct and doesn't seem to have a linear quality in terms of the way one would approach it. In the other yanas sometimes one would first do the set of preliminaries, then a yidam practice. tsa-lung practice etc., this and that. It seems like Dzogchen is very immediate, like the essence is already present, available. Is there any kind of linear path in the way one would approach these teachings or is it always direct, like this?

R: We do in the Dzogchen tradition have the gradual system of preliminaries, main part and so forth. But the special characteristic of Dzogchen is to introduce or point out directly the naked awareness, the self-existing wakefulness. This is for student who are suitable, meaning those who have sharp mental faculties. In stead of going through a lot of beating around the bush, one would introduce them directly to their mind essence, to their self-existing awareness.

Dzogchen is said to have great advantage but also great danger. Why is this? Because all the teachings are ultimately and finally resolved within the system of Dzogchen. This can be divided into two parts, resolving all the teaching through intellectual understanding and through experience.

To resolve through experience is what is the great advantage or benefit in the sense that having pointed out and recognizing directly naked awareness and simply makes that the main part of practice. That is the point when there is an incredible great benefit because that itself is the very direct and swift path to enlightenment.

On the other hand, the great danger is when one just leaves it as intellectual understanding, that "In Dzogchen there is nothing to meditate upon. There is nothing to view. There is nothing to carry out as an action." That becomes just a concept of nihilism and is completely detrimental to progress. This is because the final point of the teaching is conceptlessness, being beyond intellectual thinking. Yet, what has happened is that one has created an intellectual idea of what Dzogchen is and holds on to that idea very tightly. This is a major mistake that can happen. So, it is very important to take the teachings into one's personal experience through the oral instructions of one's teacher. Otherwise, simply to have the idea "I am meditating on Dzogchen" is to completely miss the point.

Self-existing wakefulness is present within the mind-stream of all sentient beings since primordial time. This presence is something which should not be left as theory, but should be acknowledged though one's experience. One first recognizes it, then trains and attain stability in it. That is when it is said that Dzogchen has great benefit. There is actually no greater benefit than this.

Great danger means that when this is left as words of mere intellectual understanding then one doesn't gain any experience but merely holds some concept about it and lack the nonconceptual quality. Conceptual mind is merely intellect whereas experience to remain in the continuity of naked awareness; growing used to it what is called "experiencing."




It is the same principle whether one talks of Madhyamika, Mahamudra or Dzogchen. As is said in the Bodhicharya Avatara, "When one's intellect holds neither the concept of concreteness nor of inconcreteness, that is the state of not conceptualizing." As long as one is not free from concepts, one's view remains as mere intellectual understanding and the Dzogchen view is then left as mere theory. One might then think "Dzogchen is primordially empty, it is free from a basis. There is nothing to meditate upon, no need to do anything If I meditate in the morning, I am a buddha in the morning. When I recognize at night, I am a buddha at night. The destined one does not even have to meditate."

Actually, Dzogchen is the way to purify the most subtle obscuration of dualistic knowledge - it is something quite in credible. But if one only imagines it, if it is a mere theory, thinking "I don't need to do anything, neither meditate nor practice," [one's has completely missed the point]. There has been many people thinking like this in the past.

Compared to straying into an intellectualized version of Dzogchen, it is much more beneficial to practice according to Madhyamika or Mahamudra where one goes along step by step, alternating theory and experience within the structure of theory, experience and realization. Proceeding gradually in this way one becomes more and more clear about what is to be resolved and then finally captures the "dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation." In this graduated system there are some reference points along the various paths and levels. But in Dzogchen the master will from the very beginning point out the nonconceptual state, instructing the student to remain free from concepts. It then happens that some student will think, "I am free from concepts, I am never distracted!" while walking around with vacantly gazing eyes. That is called straying into intellectual understanding.


http://www.rangjung.com/authors/tulku_u ... erview.htm

[Sönam]

Good post ...

Sönam

[username]

Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.


Q: What does Dzogchen mean?

R: Dzog, "perfection" or "completion," means as in this quote from a tantra, "Complete in one - everything is complete within mind. Complete in two - everything of samsara and nirvana is complete within this."

"Dzog" means that all the teachings, all phenomena, is completely contained in the vehicle of Dzogchen; all the lower vehicles are included within Dzogchen. "Chen," "great," means that there is no method or means higher than this vehicle.

Q: What is the basic outline of practice according to the Dzogchen path?

R: All the Buddha's teachings are contained within nine gradual vehicle of which Dzogchen, the Great Perfection, is like the highest golden ornament on a rooftop spire, or the victory banner on the summit of a great building. All the eight lower vehicles are contained within the ninth which is called Dzogchen in Tibetan, Mahasandhi in Sanskrit [and the Great Perfection in English]. But Dzogchen is not contained in the lowest one, the shravaka vehicle. So when we say "perfect" or "complete" it means that all the lower yanas are perfected or completely contained within the Great Perfection, within Dzogchen.

Usually we say that Dzogchen, sometimes called Ati Yoga, is a Dharma tradition but actually it is just the state of one's mind, basically.

Precise and pithy definition of the nine Buddhist yanas crowned at the apex with Dzogchen as TUR saw it. Thanks to Erik's translations similar to this over the decades who is the best lotsawa IMO and whose mastery technically in vocabulary and context is even more apt than Valby IMO whose dictionary is fantastic too, nevermind lessers. Also wonderful Marcia Binder Schmidt's great translations fragrant with her technical mastery and personal insights are very meaningful and much needed. There are many aspiring translators and even better than them are tens of properly trained academic researchers in greater number translating expertly in specialized areas but what sets true "Lotsawas" like Erik apart is his realizations on top of his unrivalled technical ability.

After decades Erik and Marcia have just published the only other "Lotsawa" in their publishing house's history, Chonyi Drolma, who is new and a student of the late great siddha Thinley Norbu Rinpoche and the supreme master known as Lama Tharchin Rinpoche. She finished one three year retreat and after being published has now started another three year Dzogchen retreat. She is new but apart from her technical mastery and expertise in the context of Dzogchen, you can see why her work is great because she too has meaningful insights like true lotsawas and that is the whole point ultimately, never mind being free of error in content's context and intention. TUR was truly one of the greatest not just recently but ever. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche used to say he was Guru Chowang in person. Guru Chowang would be proud to have been praised as the unique great TUR in person too. And the young TUR yangsi recognized by Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche as a great tulku has been described by the great bodhisattva CNR thus:
http://www.shedrub.org/teacherpage.php?tid=5

Thanks to muni & phantom59 for their usual much appreciated content from the web.

[Malcolm]

Thanks to Erik's translations similar to this over the decades who is the best lotsawa IMO and whose mastery technically in vocabulary and context is even more apt than Valby IMO whose dictionary is fantastic too, nevermind lessers.

Hey, I thought you said I might be the best English translator:

Your work here is benefiting many and I hope it continues in force as well as looking forward to your translations as I think you might be the best living English translator

But it is not really a competition since my spoken Tibetan sucks...Erik is a fine translator. So is Valby, and a host of others.

M

[username]

As I said above there are three categories in my opinion. First there are translators. Then there are academics who specialize in fine areas. Third there are lotsawas. Some span two or all three areas. There are two areas of distinction. The academics' work can not be really compared to ohers as such since some are not practitioners (actually I like those best amongst academics) plus others. Academics as a whole are for me more apt in the context of their focused small areas. Another distinguishing feature setting them apart is that their main aim is not translating but the field of research. The third category of realized lotsawas' works again shines in the context and more importantly based on their insights. This can only be a subjective opinion which varies from reader to reader and I just stated my opinion. You have a talent in pithy precise definitions but every translator's hues of judgments comes true. Maybe that is why you keep changing them. I find Erik's (RY) & Valby's dictionaries masterpieces too and as a mere average reader am just expressing my personal opinions on how various works affect me personally as I said, just like on Amazon reviews.

[Malcolm]

You have a talent in pithy precise definitions but every translator's hues of judgments comes true. Maybe that is why you keep changing them.

Not sure which judgements you mean. But every translation is a learning experience and an opportunity for learning and refinement.

M

[username]

All translators, like all writers, have judgments and views which they can not stop coming across. Also every translation, or any writing, affects each reader uniquely.

[Malcolm]

All translators, like all writers, have judgments and views which they can not stop coming across. Also every translation, or any writing, affects each reader uniquely.

Yes, that is true. I just try to translate the text as accurately as I can, taking the meaning into account first. Thus, when I see a term like sang rgyas I just translate it as Buddha, buddhahood, etc. without making too much judgment unless there is a play on words in the text.

Actually for all the recent sturm and drung about this and that "view" of mine, I really try very hard to be as transparent in my translations as possible. Of course, you are right, I have to make choices, but I hope that my choices based on my 23 years as a Dharma practitioner are informed primarily by my practice of these teachings. To be honest, the greatest single thing that changed the way I linguistically looked at Dzogchen texts in particular was studying Tibetan Medicine. Dzogchen language, like the language of medicine is not static, it is dynamic, process-oriented, where as the language of Madhyamaka, Abhidharma, etc., is very static.

One thing people forget is that there is a close connection with Dzogchen and Tibetan doctors. Even Chetsun Senge Wangchuk was a doctor, and many great tertons, like Rigdzin Godem, Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo, Kongtrul, Khyentse, etc., were skilled physicians.

[username]

Yes as well as TTM I remember Frances Garrett's ebook affected your views. On another point, Indian Ayurveda as a source, has really just been taken up in recent decades properly, just like all Tibetan Studies, and needs much more research. Thirdly the aspects of language theory you are referring to affect not only Tibetan studies but all fields as a century of European theorists have been debating. It is a vast area.

[Malcolm]

...I remember Frances Garrett's ebook affected your views.

Not at all -- her book is an excellent summary of the available gestational models in various cycles, TTM, Kalacakra and Rgra thal gyur, etc.

On another point, Ayurveda as a source, has really just been taken up in recent decades properly, just like all Tibetan Studies, and needs much more research.

Yes. Like the Four Tantra's (in which respect is paid to Bonpos in terms of which tradition to which one should resort when doing rites to dipell provocations), the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita is a text, which while authored by a follower of Buddhadharma, pays respect to Brahmins and others in terms of the customs a patient might use as their spiritual support.

Thirdly the aspects of language theory you are referring to affect not only Tibetan studies but all fields as a century of European theorists have been debating. It is a vast area.

Indeed. My work is just a drop in a vast sea.

[heart]

But it is not really a competition since my spoken Tibetan sucks...Erik is a fine translator. So is Valby, and a host of others.

M

You realize how good Erik is when you hear him translate direct introductions and all kind of pith instructions. It isn't just his words, it is his voice and his whole person that becomes both invisible and at the same time sweet as honey and sharp as a "phat". I think very few people have that kind of experience and grace that he have. He is also quite a wonderful teacher these days since CNR request him to start teach.

Not comparing him to you Malcolm, anyway we never met IRL.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Not comparing him to you Malcolm, anyway we never met IRL.

/magnus

I am not an oral translator. I was a) discouraged from learning colloquial Tibetan by my original Tibetan teacher b) I have spent insufficient time in Tibetan communities to gain oral fluency c) Colloquial Tibetan is of little use in translating Dharma texts.

And no, we never met in meatspace.

[Kelwin]

Such a beautiful interview, excellent!

May all confusion, which somehow seeks to debate who is a good translator in the sight of great dharma, dawn as wisdom.

[kalden yungdrung]

Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.



Compared to straying into an intellectualized version of Dzogchen, it is much more beneficial to practice according to Madhyamika or Mahamudra where one goes along step by step, alternating theory and experience within the structure of theory, experience and realization. Proceeding gradually in this way one becomes more and more clear about what is to be resolved and then finally captures the "dharmakaya throne of nonmeditation." In this graduated system there are some reference points along the various paths and levels. But in Dzogchen the master will from the very beginning point out the nonconceptual state, instructing the student to remain free from concepts. It then happens that some student will think, "I am free from concepts, I am never distracted!" while walking around with vacantly gazing eyes. That is called straying into intellectual understanding.


Tashi delek,

Fine that also here, the gradual Path is seen as beneficial.

Mutsog Marro
KY

[ram peswani]

[quote="muni"]Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.




When it comes to combining these following two points into actual experience, we can use the statement of the 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje, "It is not existent as even the buddhas have not seen it." This means that the basic state of mind is not something that exists in a concrete way; even the buddhas of the three times have never perceived it. "It is not non-existent as it is the basis for both samsara and nirvana. This is not a contradiction, it is the middle path of unity." Contradiction is like having fire and water on the same plate. Its impossible. But that is not the case here. The basic nature is neither existent nor non-existent - these two are an indivisible unity. "May I perceive the mind nature free from extremes." Usually when we say "is" it contradicts "is not." And when we say "non-existent" it contradicts "existent." But this middle path of unity is devoid of such contradiction. When it is said "to attain the unified state of Vajradhara," that actually refers to what I discussed here.

ram...
Buddhas perceived Dzogchen. They knew that ultimate result is Pratyekbuddha. Lotus sutra tells that Buddhas went for higher purpose. They deliberately put a desire in this process to create a better and bigger universe, so that coming existence takes advantage of their experience. Bigger universe lasts for long and better universe protects existence from sufferings.



The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows: "Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through." This view is actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality of Dzogchen is what is called "The spontaneously present nature is Togal, Direct Crossing." The unity of these two, Cutting Through and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That's it.

ram..
here i agree. This is the best method for direct crossing, while Buddhas have to sacrifice direct crossing for the benefit of existence

[ram peswani]

[quote="ram peswani"][quote="muni"]Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.


My view....

As per Lotus sutra, there were many Arhats (those who have crossed over) at eagle peak.
Guatam Buddha preached Lotus sutra for the first time at eagle peak. At the start of preaching he told all arhats that their will be greater benefits if they postpone the crossing over. Majority refused to surrender the benefits of crossing over. They were expelled by Guatam Buddha. He appreciated the remaining arhats and called them real and called those arhats who left as chaff {rejections).

The process of Dzogchen can be practiced by anyone. A Guru is a must, otherwise there is danger. If the Guru is of Buddha linage the crossed ones become Pratyakbuddhas. Others may or may not get 9 vehicles depending upon their linage. If other Gurus are having lower vehicle their crossing over will not happen. It will be a rarity if one crosses over without a Guru.

These are bad times and Dzogchen is the best option available. Option of Buddhahood is ruled out as only Buddhas can bestow prophesy of Buddhahood and that also to those who are ready for crossing over.

[ram peswani]

[quote="ram peswani"][quote="muni"]Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.


My view....

As per Lotus sutra, there were many Arhats (those who have crossed over) at eagle peak.
Guatam Buddha preached Lotus sutra for the first time at eagle peak. At the start of preaching he told all arhats that their will be greater benefits if they postpone the crossing over. Majority refused to surrender the benefits of crossing over. They were expelled by Guatam Buddha. He appreciated the remaining arhats and called them real and called those arhats who left as chaff {rejections).

The process of Dzogchen can be practiced by anyone. A Guru is a must, otherwise there is danger. If the Guru is of Buddha linage the crossed ones become Pratyakbuddhas. Others may or may not get 9 vehicles depending upon their linage. If other Gurus are having lower vehicle their crossing over will not happen. It will be a rarity if one crosses over without a Guru.

These are bad times and Dzogchen is the best option available. Option of Buddhahood is ruled out as only Buddhas can bestow prophesy of Buddhahood and that also to those who are ready for crossing over.

[rai]

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche from http://www.rangjung.com/authors/tulku_u ... erview.htm :

Once one has received the pointing-out instruction there is the chance of either recognizing it or not.

[kalden yungdrung]

Interview for Vajradhatu Sun.



The special feature of Dzogchen is as follows: "Primordial pure essence is Trekcho, Cutting Through." This view is actually present in all the nine vehicles, but the special quality of Dzogchen is what is called "The spontaneously present nature is Togal, Direct Crossing." The unity of these two, Cutting Through and Direct Crossing, Trekcho and Togal, is the special or unique teaching of Dzogchen. That is how Dzogchen basically is. That's it.

KY wrote:

Tashi delek,

Good interpretation!

Sure Thogal is that kind of special experience which is not exisitng in other Paths.

- Then the attainment would be different?

But there is no Trekchod / emptiness aspect and / + Thogal / clearity aspect, in Nature they are inseparable connected but didivded for some reasons.
It is also reflected in the partial experience of Nature by the practitioner......

I read that there is in that way real Dzogchen and partial Dzogchen.........


Mutosg marro
KY

ram..
here i agree. This is the best method for direct crossing, while Buddhas have to sacrifice direct crossing for the benefit of existence

[Sönam]

KY ... where is your answer? I help you, take the following for exemple (2 time /quote before answering)

Sönam