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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Bob:

You have been complaining about this issue for years. The fact is that there are options for people if they seek them out. There are disability/low income memberships.

Media costs money to produce.

I happen to know for a fact that the financial policies in the DC come directly from ChNN. When you complain about the money, you are complaining about the boss.

M


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

Respectfully, nope.

The Boss is Perfect, and whatever he does is Perfect, (my mother right or wrong) but working with circumstances, allows himself to be conditioned by the people advising him. Some people say this has been less than perfect, for the Dzogchen Community. Sure you can say, "It's not so bad" and "it could be a lot worse," and while true, DOESN'T HELP ANYONE FROM MOLDOVA.

How often do the members of the International Gaykil change? Did you ever try to collaborate on the "Collaboration" website? Maybe as the Community evolves, the advisors, and advice, could evolve too.

Respectfully,

ob


Last edited by oldbob on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:44 pm 
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oldbob wrote:
One very hot day in Grosseto, when I was walking from the Questura, back to the bus station, I stopped into a little bar to ask for a glass of "local" water. The pretty bar lady was wearing a Tibetan mala around her neck. So in my broken Italian I asked her if she liked Tibetan things. She said, "Oh yes. I like Tibetan things very much. I've been to India and have met some Tibetan Teachers there." I then asked her if she knew of Merigar and of the Teachings there. She said, Oh yes, I like the Master very much but the people there are always asking for money for everything so I don't go there." I thanked her for the water and left.

Haha I guess so, I've only been there three times though. Though they ask for money, they don't demand it in my experience (except for the retreat itself I guess, though even then people can arrange something like helping in the kitchen instead of paying or paying less as far as I know), so you can always say no.

Quote:
Open access to the precious Teachings will solve these issues.

Well (open) webcasts are totally free of charge. But it isn't really free, someone has to pay for it, the same for the Mirror, retreat, etc. I recently got an email from someone saying why should he pay since Rinpoche told him he himself doesn't need the money and I thought it was a bit silly. If everybody thought that way and nobody would pay how could we have all these things? If someone is going "free" that just means someone else is paying. Not that there is anything wrong with that of course, but one shouldn't simply take it for granted.
So I think it's a pretty good system, but if people can't afford it there should be options to accomodate that too (and I think there are). And mind you, being a student, most of the time I'm more on the poor side of things. Though that is relative too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:56 pm 
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oldbob wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Bob:

You have been complaining about this issue for years. The fact is that there are options for people if they seek them out. There are disability/low income memberships.

Media costs money to produce.

I happen to know for a fact that the financial policies in the DC come directly from ChNN. When you complain about the money, you are complaining about the boss.

M


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

Respectfully, nope.

The Boss is Perfect, and whatever he does is Perfect (my mother right or wrong) but working with circumstances, allows himself to be conditioned by the people advising him. Some people say this has been less than perfect, for the Dzogchen Community. Sure you can say, "It's not so bad" and "it could be a lot worse," and while true, DOESN'T HELP ANYONE FROM MOLDOVA.

How often do the members of the International Gaykil change? Did you ever try to collaborate on the "Collaboration" website? Maybe as the Community evolves, the advisors, and advice, could evolve too.

Respectfully,

ob


Bob, you are aware that the pricing structure of memberships and so on for people in Eastern Europe and Russia is completely different than for Western Europeans?

Tashigar South is cheaper than Tsegyalgar?

Anyway, it is best we not be too attached to our opinions, no?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Pero wrote:
oldbob wrote:
One very hot day in Grosseto, when I was walking from the Questura, back to the bus station, I stopped into a little bar to ask for a glass of "local" water. The pretty bar lady was wearing a Tibetan mala around her neck. So in my broken Italian I asked her if she liked Tibetan things. She said, "Oh yes. I like Tibetan things very much. I've been to India and have met some Tibetan Teachers there." I then asked her if she knew of Merigar and of the Teachings there. She said, Oh yes, I like the Master very much but the people there are always asking for money for everything so I don't go there." I thanked her for the water and left.

Haha I guess so, I've only been there three times though. Though they ask for money, they don't demand it in my experience (except for the retreat itself I guess, though even then people can arrange something like helping in the kitchen instead of paying or paying less as far as I know), so you can always say no.

Quote:
Open access to the precious Teachings will solve these issues.

Well (open) webcasts are totally free of charge. But it isn't really free, someone has to pay for it, the same for the Mirror, retreat, etc. I recently got an email from someone saying why should he pay since Rinpoche told him he himself doesn't need the money and I thought it was a bit silly. If everybody thought that way and nobody would pay how could we have all these things? If someone is going "free" that just means someone else is paying. Not that there is anything wrong with that of course, but one shouldn't simply take it for granted.
So I think it's a pretty good system, but if people can't afford it there should be options to accommodate that too (and I think there are). And mind you, being a student, most of the time I'm more on the poor side of things. Though that is relative too.


:good: The hoops you have to jump through vary from time to time and place to place.

The last time Rinpoche came to NYC there was no "work study," and people who could not pay were turned away: this is first hand observation. This year, as more kindly people are responsible, things are much more open.

:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

Sure the bills have to be paid: taking responsibility for yourself is one of the fundamental principles of the Dzogchen Community, but there are many trade-offs between expensive materials with sophisticated production values compared to inexpensive materials with no-frills production values, that are just as effective to communicate the information.

Maybe one solution to monetize the Teachings, and yet still have them be available for everybody, would be to have a two tier system where an expensive and glossy media presentation would be available to those who could afford, and enjoy that, and a no-frills media presentation, could be available at low or no cost, for the poor.

Perhaps the reduced membership needs to be appropriate to what can be afforded by each person's income, relative to the cost of living where they live, and not just by a flat rate for each Gar.

In the East, it is traditional to have "sponsors" for the Teachings and publications. Sponsorship is linked to gaining personal merit. Maybe this could work.

Maybe a funding endowment could be set up through tax deductible donations and legacy gifting.

Good fortune to all and All,

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

ob


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Maybe I said too much. :)

Good wishes to all.

Kevin

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http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


Last edited by Virgo on Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
oldbob wrote:
In the East, it is traditional to have "sponsor's" for the Teachings and publications. Sponsorship is linked to gaining personal merit. Maybe this could work.

Good fortune to all and All,

ob


For the time being we have to deal with these issues. In the future, things will be different. Humans will relate differently to each other (this is starting). New discoveries will be made that allow us to completely change economic structures, trade structures, currency, etc. The world is going to change completely, and people will see how outdated the systems we have been using will become. However, the ground isn't set for these changes completely just yet. We have to hang on for a bit longer.

We live in a world that just about everything that is consumed takes a good deal of effort to produce. Since we consume, we must do our fair share of producing. This whole structure will change, however. Things will be produced with less effort and we will desire to consume less. Currency structures will also change. A lot is going to change. We are entering the Golden Era.

Kevin


Marx (and more so Engels, and even more so the Second International) thought so, too. On what basis are you making this argument? (I hope you're right by the way)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
oldbob wrote:
In the East, it is traditional to have "sponsor's" for the Teachings and publications. Sponsorship is linked to gaining personal merit. Maybe this could work.

Good fortune to all and All,

ob


For the time being we have to deal with these issues. In the future, things will be different. Humans will relate differently to each other (this is starting). New discoveries will be made that allow us to completely change economic structures, trade structures, currency, etc. The world is going to change completely, and people will see how outdated the systems we have been using will become. However, the ground isn't set for these changes completely just yet. We have to hang on for a bit longer.

We live in a world that just about everything that is consumed takes a good deal of effort to produce. Since we consume, we must do our fair share of producing. This whole structure will change, however. Things will be produced with less effort and we will desire to consume less. Currency structures will also change. A lot is going to change. We are entering the Golden Era.

Kevin


Yup! I am getting old and a little impatient and want to speed things up. A few years ago I visited Chișinău, the capitol of Moldova. I remember a few main streets which were paved. The rest were dirt. Maybe it is better today. A few years ago I met a Doctor from Moldova at Merigar, and he told me he had saved up to bring his son and himself to Merigar. I asked him how much he made and he said 50e a month. I asked him how much a pair of shoes cost and he said 100e. I hope he makes more today, but the principle is the same.

:heart: The Teachings could be monetized in a way that does not prevent ANYONE from receiving them if they want to. :heart:

Now I am going to have some sardines (mashed with lemon juice) and a blueberry gelato for lunch. :zzz: :smile:

Good fortune to all and All,

ob


Last edited by oldbob on Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:14 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
Marx (and more so Engels, and even more so the Second International) thought so, too. On what basis are you making this argument? (I hope you're right by the way)

We have now entered a new astrological age where this is bound to happen.

Kevin

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http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:16 pm 
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oldbob wrote:
:heart: The Teachings could be monetized in a way that does not prevent ANYONE from receiving them if they want to. :heart:

ob

They already have.

Kevin

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ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
Virgo wrote:
oldbob wrote:
In the East, it is traditional to have "sponsor's" for the Teachings and publications. Sponsorship is linked to gaining personal merit. Maybe this could work.

Good fortune to all and All,

ob


For the time being we have to deal with these issues. In the future, things will be different. Humans will relate differently to each other (this is starting). New discoveries will be made that allow us to completely change economic structures, trade structures, currency, etc. The world is going to change completely, and people will see how outdated the systems we have been using will become. However, the ground isn't set for these changes completely just yet. We have to hang on for a bit longer.

We live in a world that just about everything that is consumed takes a good deal of effort to produce. Since we consume, we must do our fair share of producing. This whole structure will change, however. Things will be produced with less effort and we will desire to consume less. Currency structures will also change. A lot is going to change. We are entering the Golden Era.

Kevin


Marx (and more so Engels, and even more so the Second International) thought so, too. On what basis are you making this argument? (I hope you're right by the way)


That's remind me the dream of the working class at the beginning of industrialization. They though that "automatism" will slowly replace workers and workers will slowly drop to other tasks, like learning and so on. Profit from "automatisation" could be shared between capitalists and workers ...
Dreamers ... capitalism, those who possess the production tool, share holders, have for objective more profit and if ever a full automatism would be possible, then will not let a penny to workers ... they would better shoot to workers (and let the family pay for the bullet).

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:37 pm 
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As a relative newcomer, I would be drawn directly to this thread due to the title.

May I respectfully ask that the OP changes the title, as the topic seems to be related to pricing and costing - that is not how to introduce people to a new organisation.

If a person finds the practices and the DC interesting then they may well want to check out the charges and what happens to the income, but I don't think they want to read about personal gripes and assertions that ChNNR is perfect but being led by the nose by his students over financial matters.

I met a couple recently who had very little. To pay for travel to see their Guru they were taking the car off the road to save the cost (tax, insurance and fuel), eating less, taking no holiday, working extra hours etc etc

I'm not saying that it is the case here, but I sometimes read people's complaints about costs of travel, accommodation, teachers costs etc. for dharma events and then see them on Facebook flashing a new ipad or talking about their great holiday. Priorities, folks, priorities. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Sönam wrote:

That's remind me the dream of the working class at the beginning of industrialization. They though that "automatism" will slowly replace workers and workers will slowly drop to other tasks, like learning and so on. Profit from "automatisation" could be shared between capitalists and workers ...
Dreamers ... capitalism, those who possess the production tool, share holders, have for objective more profit and if ever a full automatism would be possible, then will not let a penny to workers ... they would better shoot to workers (and let the family pay for the bullet).

Sönam

Sorry Sonam, I am not sure what you were saying here.

Kevin

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http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
Sönam wrote:

That's remind me the dream of the working class at the beginning of industrialization. They though that "automatism" will slowly replace workers and workers will slowly drop to other tasks, like learning and so on. Profit from "automatisation" could be shared between capitalists and workers ...
Dreamers ... capitalism, those who possess the production tool, share holders, have for objective more profit and if ever a full automatism would be possible, then will not let a penny to workers ... they would better shoot to workers (and let the family pay for the bullet).

Sönam

Sorry Sonam, I am not sure what you were saying here.

Kevin


Sorry for my bad english ... as I already tell, sometime it's so bad that I have difficulties to understand myself. Fortunately sometime it's full ok.
What I've tried to say is that this view of a better futur because production costs are going to slow down, was already an utopia more than 100 years ago, and prove was made that a lower cost production (automatism) did'nt bring more freedom for workers, but more money for the already possessing class.

I'm speaking of the inevitability of the class struggle in a capitalist universe.

Hope it's better so ...
Sönam

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
Sorry for my bad english ... as I already tell, sometime it's so bad that I have difficulties to understand myself. Fortunately sometime it's full ok.
What I've tried to say is that this view of a better futur because production costs are going to slow down, was already an utopia more than 100 years ago, and prove was made that a lower cost production (automatism) did'nt bring more freedom for workers, but more money for the already possessing class.

I'm speaking of the inevitability of the class struggle in a capitalist universe.

Hope it's better so ...
Sönam

Normally I understand you perfectly Sonam. This time I didn't however.

I disagree and think that lower production costs has brought more freedom for workers. In my country there are no "classes". There are some who are poor, but they can become wealthy, or have a middle income. There are some that are wealthy but who can become poor and not get back out of it, or come to lose some of their fortune, and so forth. The amount of assets that a person has can change many times based on various factors. Some people are wealthier and more powerful than others, but there is no class system-- we are all just Americans.


Kevin

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ओं मणिपद्मे हूं

http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/post/336-je-tsongkhapas-great-stages-of-the-path
http://www.ripple.org
http://caretoclick.com/save-the-rainforests/donate-clicks-likes-and-tweets-to-fight-climate-change-and-deforestation


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Virgo wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Sorry for my bad english ... as I already tell, sometime it's so bad that I have difficulties to understand myself. Fortunately sometime it's full ok.
What I've tried to say is that this view of a better futur because production costs are going to slow down, was already an utopia more than 100 years ago, and prove was made that a lower cost production (automatism) did'nt bring more freedom for workers, but more money for the already possessing class.

I'm speaking of the inevitability of the class struggle in a capitalist universe.

Hope it's better so ...
Sönam

Normally I understand you perfectly Sonam. This time I didn't however.

I disagree and think that lower production costs has brought more freedom for workers. In my country there are no "classes". There are some who are poor, but they can become wealthy, or have a middle income. There are some that are wealthy but who can become poor and not get back out of it, or come to lose some of their fortune, and so forth. The amount of assets that a person has can change many times based on various factors. Some people are wealthier and more powerful than others, but there is no class system-- we are all just Americans.


Kevin


I do not believe that ... when you say "we are all just Americans" it's sound like a fairy tale. But we are too much off topic, so we will have other occasions to get back to that subject.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
As a relative newcomer, I would be drawn directly to this thread due to the title.

May I respectfully ask that the OP changes the title, as the topic seems to be related to pricing and costing - that is not how to introduce people to a new organisation.

If a person finds the practices and the DC interesting then they may well want to check out the charges and what happens to the income, but I don't think they want to read about personal gripes and assertions that ChNNR is perfect but being led by the nose by his students over financial matters.

I met a couple recently who had very little. To pay for travel to see their Guru they were taking the car off the road to save the cost (tax, insurance and fuel), eating less, taking no holiday, working extra hours etc etc

I'm not saying that it is the case here, but I sometimes read people's complaints about costs of travel, accommodation, teachers costs etc. for dharma events and then see them on Facebook flashing a new ipad or talking about their great holiday. Priorities, folks, priorities. ;)


Dear Blue Garuda,

Respectfully,

Please read the thread from the beginning.
I am not complaining about the Dzogchen Community at all. For me it has been really perfect, and ChNNR IS PERFECT TOO.

The key point, and it is an important point for newcomers, is that people will no longer be prevented from attending the precious Teachings of ChNNR due to lack of funds.

THIS IS BIG NEWS FOR NEWCOMERS.

Hurrah for Blue Garuda! Hurrah for poor people! Hurrah for the Dzogchen Community! Hurrah for ChNNR and his precious Teachings!

I think the newcomers will figure things out - but am happy with whatever the moderators do to make things more understandable.

Respectfully, ob

PS And I also have studied philosophy with Marx. Hurrumph! :smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je0nKjSzsNw

I think everyone could learn to relax by studying philosophy with Marx. Very good for newcomers and old-timers alike.

PSS You have a great web site that people on DW should know about. Lots of good stuff. Remind me to tell you my melong story some time.

http://bluegaruda.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
Virgo wrote:
For the time being we have to deal with these issues. In the future, things will be different. Humans will relate differently to each other (this is starting). New discoveries will be made that allow us to completely change economic structures, trade structures, currency, etc. The world is going to change completely, and people will see how outdated the systems we have been using will become. However, the ground isn't set for these changes completely just yet. We have to hang on for a bit longer.

We live in a world that just about everything that is consumed takes a good deal of effort to produce. Since we consume, we must do our fair share of producing. This whole structure will change, however. Things will be produced with less effort and we will desire to consume less. Currency structures will also change. A lot is going to change. We are entering the Golden Era.

Kevin


Marx (and more so Engels, and even more so the Second International) thought so, too. On what basis are you making this argument? (I hope you're right by the way)


Jikan wrote:
(I hope you're right by the way)


Me three! :twothumbsup:

Interestingly, Rinpoche notes with reference to the settlement of practitioners which developed around his own root teacher, Rigdzin Changchub Dorje, that it operated like a commune. In the 1950s, the Chinese who visited and inspected it could find no fault with the way it functioned despite close scrutiny. Economically, it operated like a model people's commune or kibbutz (happily, one without the guns and a role in occupying the land of others), and was seen by the Chinese inspectors as a model socialist commune. They didn't realise that it was a community of practitioners. I wonder whether Rigdzin Changchub Dorje's gar, in which each would seem to have given according to ability and to have received according to need, is not a model which underpins the constitution of the Dzogchen Community fostered by Rinpoche.

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kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
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peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Sally Gross wrote:
I wonder whether Rigdzin Changchub Dorje's gar, in which each would seem to have given according to ability and to have received according to need, is not a model which underpins the constitution of the Dzogchen Community fostered by Rinpoche.


It is the model for the community.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Blue Garuda wrote:
As a relative newcomer, I would be drawn directly to this thread due to the title.

May I respectfully ask that the OP changes the title, as the topic seems to be related to pricing and costing - that is not how to introduce people to a new organisation.

If a person finds the practices and the DC interesting then they may well want to check out the charges and what happens to the income, but I don't think they want to read about personal gripes and assertions that ChNNR is perfect but being led by the nose by his students over financial matters.

I met a couple recently who had very little. To pay for travel to see their Guru they were taking the car off the road to save the cost (tax, insurance and fuel), eating less, taking no holiday, working extra hours etc etc

I'm not saying that it is the case here, but I sometimes read people's complaints about costs of travel, accommodation, teachers costs etc. for dharma events and then see them on Facebook flashing a new ipad or talking about their great holiday. Priorities, folks, priorities. ;)

Good remark BG. I also agree. I thought this thread would be about something completely different! :lol:
Title edited.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:38 pm 
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What can I say oldbob... the world runs on money. It's a shame, but that's how things role. No money equals to having nothing done these days. The DC isn't hanging in mid air. It's inserted in a society where nearly everything has a price. That shouldn't be a justification for overcharging, but I think the prices charged are quite affordable and fair. Of course this always depends on how much money one has, and I can tell you I don't have as much as I would like, but all in all I think the prices are fair.

I also believe that how one behaves and relates to people goes a great way in getting help. If you are kind, helpful, really try to do your best and don't react negatively each time you face a problem, understanding different perspectives an attitudes, this can help others helping you. Things cost money. Those who have it, also have easier access. Those who don't, must keep in mind that what is fair is fair and then try to do their best to see if they can get help. If possible, great, if not, they need to understand how the world runs. I would never have the nerve to go to a retreat without being able to pay for it. That wouldn't cross my mind. If I was completly broke and couldn't afford a single retreat, ever, I would talk to the organization and at least try to meet the teacher outside the retreat. But always keeping in mind that he has limited time and how things work. Imagine everyone would want everything for free or for a very low cost? In no time the DC would be a mirage. I'm not saying there aren't people who charge too much. I don't know. But I never faced any expenses that weren't clear, known in advance and so on. All was transparent, always.

Anyway, from my experience, the DC has been what gave me more for less, by far.


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