restricted texts question

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Re: restricted texts question

Postby heart » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:29 am

In the bone yard wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
Well, I think it is the rampant spiritual materialism in the west that frighten the Tibetan Lamas.


It is rampant on this website! :rolling:

We always want to practice higher than we can understand.
We have to control that thinking with basic meditation.


ehmm, that was me that your are quoting, not Andrew108.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby In the bone yard » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:17 pm

:tongue:
There were many quoted replies within the response field, I erased the wrong brackets!
:oops:
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby Josef » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:25 pm

heart wrote:[

Well, I think it is the rampant spiritual materialism in the west that frighten the Tibetan Lamas. I guess they had problem like this in Tibet to, but very small scale.
/magnus

Really?
I have to disagree.
"Spiritual materialism" was (and is) far more pervasive and "rampant" in Tibet as well as among the exile community and missionary community.
So-called "Westerners" do not have a theocracy to preserve.
I am not saying that there isnt a problem, but the assumption that it is worse amongst Westerners is more of the same ethnocentrism that keeps us in a lopsided relationship with our Tibetan dharma siblings.
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby oldbob » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:24 am

Dear all and All,

The purpose of all Dharma activity is to realize Buddhahood. :buddha1:
The purpose of a Dharma book is to support your practice so you gain the experiences beyond words that are pointed out in the book.
So I think that if reading a restricted book will help you, then it is OK. Then the question is, who is to decide if it will help your realization, or hurt your realization: you or the Lama who restricted the book?

If a book is restricted then there must have been a reason for it in the mind of the Lama who made that restriction. I think that the Lamas want to know that your are responsible and serious and that you are not going to hurt yourself, or others, if they give you a restricted teaching, book or otherwise. Now with so much available on the web, is not serious, to keep something secret when it has already been published, either as root text or commentary. Also, I think that Ekajati is just as upset, if someone prevents a person, who is qualified, from receiving a restricted teaching, as when a restricted teaching is given to someone who is not qualified.

I have always found that if I am humble, respectful, sincere and persevering, all doors open. It helps if you have attended a lot of wangs / teachings / completed formal practices, and / or been a sponsor, and can say honestly that you have had pointing out instructions. All these things help build street cred with the Lamas.

Some Lamas are incredibly fearless, like HHDL, teaching the Kalachakra to thousands of people whom he has never met, or had any contact with. He is really incredibly kind. That is why he is the Dalai Lama.

Some, like ChNNR, say "go fish" when approached, in the wrong way, to give a secret teaching that was already published (read the Kailash story), but (I feel) will give anything, if it is appropriate, even to many at once, when approached in the right way.

All the Lamas are really kindly, and especially the great wish fulfilling gem, Dzogchen Penlop Rinpoche.
Maybe if you write to him about Mahamudra, The Ocean of Definitive Meaning, you can get permission.
You should write to him a long letter, explaining who you are, and what practices that you do, and why you have faith in him, and the true Lion of Dharma, Wangcheck Dorje, and the incomparable Mahamudra. If you have received pointing out instructions, then indicate from whom, and where and when, you received them.

Then explain that when conditions allow, you will take the fourfold pointing-out instructions (pointing out the nature of mind on the basis of appearances) as presented by Wangchuk Dorje. Then make the promise that when conditions allow, you will take the reading transmission and study the text systematically under the guidance of a qualified Teacher. Of course, if you do not mean these things you should not say them. If you can say these words and mean them, you can try. Maybe this will work.
Try: seattle@nalandabodhi.org and ask them for DPR's personal e-mail. Then write to him directly. It also may help if you make a prayer - as large as the universe.

http://www.dpr.info/

If you do not receive permission, then relax about it, and do something else.

May this be of help to someone.

Long life to all the Masters (and everyone else.

ob
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby heart » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:02 am

Josef wrote:
heart wrote:[

Well, I think it is the rampant spiritual materialism in the west that frighten the Tibetan Lamas. I guess they had problem like this in Tibet to, but very small scale.
/magnus

Really?
I have to disagree.
"Spiritual materialism" was (and is) far more pervasive and "rampant" in Tibet as well as among the exile community and missionary community.
So-called "Westerners" do not have a theocracy to preserve.
I am not saying that there isnt a problem, but the assumption that it is worse amongst Westerners is more of the same ethnocentrism that keeps us in a lopsided relationship with our Tibetan dharma siblings.


Could be so, I am not sure. We all tend to be a bit ethnocentric, why wouldn't the Tibetans. I used to think we were lopsided to, not so sure anymore. I think of ChNNR and his tales of trying to teach Dzogchen to Tibetans.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby simhamuka » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:52 am

anjali wrote:Thank you all for the feedback. Learning Tibetan is not an option--at least for the foreseeable future.

I'd love to talk with a Mahamudra master about practice, but so far I haven't been able to identify anyone I'm attracted to other than Thrangu Rinpoche. Unfortunately, he is not in good health these days. Admittedly I only have a limited knowledge of who is highly regarded in Mahamudra circles. So, any pointers to meditation masters would be greatly appreciated. Someone accessible here in the US would be nice.

Ideally, I'd like to find a teacher who would start with the pointing out instructions and will work with students at the level of Essence Mahamudra and straight shamatha/vipashyana training. It would be great to work with a master on one of the key meditation texts after pointing out instructions.


Anjali, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche is very close to Thrangu Rinpoche. Where are you? Is it possible for you to do Nitartha Institute? You'll be able to meet with Ponlop Rinpoche, and he gives Vajrayana teachings all month for those who've at least started ngundro. I think, because of your connection with Thrangu Rinpoche (who is wonderful) that Ponlop Rinpoche is your best bet.

ETA: I'll PM you.

ETA II: I guess oldbob and I were posting at the same time. It's a sign ... either that or Ponlop Rinpoche has the ngedon gyamsto, we all know it, and he could give you permission.
Last edited by simhamuka on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby simhamuka » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:02 am

Jinzang wrote:
Finney wrote:There's something about these restricted texts that I've never understood. Not all restricted texts as I can see why a tradition might want to reserve certain teachings. Rather, it's that the restrictions aren't always applied equally. In this case, if you're Tibetan or a westerner who can read Tibetan, then the text is freely available. Otherwise you need special permission. I've come across this before but it's never made sense to me.

Am I overlooking an important point here?


Your average Tibetan would have problems understanding the Tibetan text without a detailed commentary. I was at a teaching on Mahamudra by Garchen Rinpoche and the Tibetan translator, who was otherwise very good, kept fumbling the translation of the Mahamudra terminology.


Yes. You have to remember that while English translations are fresh and easy to follow, the Tibetan is often archaic, compressed (lots of shortened words), and easy to misunderstand.
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Re: restricted texts question

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:42 pm

I've just found this one, another translation of the 9th Karmapa's instructions by a disciple of Gendun Rinpoche:

Henrik Havlat: Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning
(also available in German)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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