Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

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Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Madeliaette » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:55 pm

I began to read a book called 'Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light' by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu yesterday. I have now read the intro & first two chapters. Whilst there is plenty more yet to read, I have already found much material to ponder. :reading:

I have been able to enter the 'dream zone' level and participate fully - whilst awake & meditating - for some time, but have had little ability to be aware whilst actually dreaming/sleeping itself – I thought that this book might assist me, as this seemed to be the proper way to practice, rather than whilst awake. I intend to follow the instructions given in chapter two and continue to read onward also - however, I have a question that remains.

Is it suitable/proper practice to use my ability to live and learn in this 'dream zone' whilst awake & meditating until I perfect doing so during sleep?

Before practicing Buddhism, I called it my 'spiritual life zone' and instead of considering myself to be meditating, I assumed I was 'contemplating philosophy' & 'living on a spiritual level' as an escape because real life sucked - since taking up Buddhist practice, I have changed my understandings and activities in this area from 'fun & freedom' to 'learning and understanding' - but I am wondering if I should focus solely on perfecting the 'asleep' dream zone practices, or if it is 'ok' to continue to participate whilst awake?
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:58 pm

Madeliaette wrote:I began to read a book called 'Dream Yoga and the Practice of Natural Light' by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu yesterday. I have now read the intro & first two chapters. Whilst there is plenty more yet to read, I have already found much material to ponder. :reading:

I have been able to enter the 'dream zone' level and participate fully - whilst awake & meditating - for some time, but have had little ability to be aware whilst actually dreaming/sleeping itself – I thought that this book might assist me, as this seemed to be the proper way to practice, rather than whilst awake. I intend to follow the instructions given in chapter two and continue to read onward also - however, I have a question that remains.

Is it suitable/proper practice to use my ability to live and learn in this 'dream zone' whilst awake & meditating until I perfect doing so during sleep?

Before practicing Buddhism, I called it my 'spiritual life zone' and instead of considering myself to be meditating, I assumed I was 'contemplating philosophy' & 'living on a spiritual level' as an escape because real life sucked - since taking up Buddhist practice, I have changed my understandings and activities in this area from 'fun & freedom' to 'learning and understanding' - but I am wondering if I should focus solely on perfecting the 'asleep' dream zone practices, or if it is 'ok' to continue to participate whilst awake?



Dream yoga is something connected with transmission. So, you need transmission to really practice dream yoga.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Madeliaette » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:05 pm

I had such in a former life - I have been trying to access that which was formerly given to me as many things have come through. Is this considered wrong?
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Josef » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:21 pm

Madeliaette wrote:I had such in a former life - I have been trying to access that which was formerly given to me as many things have come through. Is this considered wrong?

You need to receive transmission.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Madeliaette » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:40 pm

If this is necessary again in this life, would tit need to be from someone of my own lineage, or from anyone suitably qualified in this practice?
(I ask, because there are two people I know (that are both from different lineages to me) that I could approach, but I do not yet know of anyone in my own lineage, as I have only just learned of my former lineage and attempted to make contact with an appropriate center.)
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Madeliaette wrote:If this is necessary again in this life, would tit need to be from someone of my own lineage, or from anyone suitably qualified in this practice?
(I ask, because there are two people I know (that are both from different lineages to me) that I could approach, but I do not yet know of anyone in my own lineage, as I have only just learned of my former lineage and attempted to make contact with an appropriate center.)



well, if you receive transmission from ChNN -- than you automatically have transmission for dream yoga.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Josef » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:51 pm

Madeliaette wrote:If this is necessary again in this life?

Even the author of the book you are reading, who is a tulku of Adzom Drukpa had to receive transmission in this life.
Anything like this that you want to practice in this life you must receive in this life.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:53 pm

And it is not that difficult to receive transmission from ChNN, with the podcasts and all. It's a great practice.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Madeliaette » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:09 am

Ok.... Thanks, I will get onto that. It is something I feel drawn towards practicing.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Sönam » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:16 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:And it is not that difficult to receive transmission from ChNN, with the podcasts and all. It's a great practice.


It's necessary to assist, at least once, to a ChNN's transmission ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby username » Mon May 02, 2011 12:11 pm

That is right. The main part of dream yoga is done during the day for a long time. One simply has to repeat so often to oneself about daily life by whispering "this is all just a dream" that life becomes a lucid dream which is true as it's just another bardo state anyway. This has to be done really for days and a lot otherwise one just gets the odd lucid dream experience. If stopped then it has to be done again very often daily for many consecutive days as preparation. Also as a preparation it is good to go to sleep with thro-du and dissolving of the universe and body and thigle (bindu) in the guru yoga of our real nature in the heart center. And when waking up recall and be in the guru yoga of our real nature. Not only it helps dream yoga but makes half of our wasted precious life into a high practice effortlessly. Once lucid staying that way takes practice too. After that we're told it's possible to make things happen such as requesting teachings from enlightened beings with even more practice. The restricted booklet by ChNNR is only a few pages but very good. It all depends on quantity and quality, how much during many days one whispers and truly realizes the mantra "this is all just a dream".

The translated section from "Meditation, Transformation, and Dream Yoga" is excellent ("Ancient Wisdom: Nyingma Teachings of Dream Yoga, Mediatation & Transformation" is the same older edition):
http://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Transf ... 559391839/

From the superb Natural Liberation: Padmasambhava's Teachings on the Six Bardos:
http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1
Excerpt:
http://www.dream-yoga.org/scriptures/pa ... n-dreaming
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:55 pm

Moved my post, as I thought it would go better here (looks like Username already has it pretty well covered).

I've read and heard that one way to begin to see how awake we are, is to check our level of awareness within the inner-dimensions while our physical body is asleep. That is, if we are truly awakening, we'll have more clarity in our dreams; even seven times or more clarity than what we ordinarily experience in the so-called waking state within the physical dimension. In other words when we begin to awaken we start to experience the inner-dimensions as they are, rather than as foggy dreams and deluded egotistical projections.

Of course this is something that we ought to check ourselves, instead of debating about it. And I'm only an ignoramus repeating what others have said; nevertheless our level of dream clarity is perhaps one concrete way of "measuring our progress". Maybe it could be argued that in Dzogchen there is no such thing as "measure" or "progress"; but if that's the case for us, then seven times more clarity in the Dream Bardos would be mere child's play, yes?

Only bringing this up because it's easy for sentient beings like myself to read books or quotes from great Masters and then assume that we "get it", even though we continue on as Dudjom Rinpoche said (paraphrased) farting louts who stink of alcohol and fornication.

Also, I'm sure we can all agree that it goes without saying that Present Wakefulness itself is much more important than fixating on the idea of having clarity in dreams (whether our said agreeing is based on direct experience or logical deduction). :anjali:
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Pero » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:59 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:I've read and heard that one way to begin to see how awake we are, is to check our level of awareness within the inner-dimensions while our physical body is asleep. That is, if we are truly awakening, we'll have more clarity in our dreams; even seven times or more clarity than what we ordinarily experience in the so-called waking state within the physical dimension.

I think it is that in dreams we have seven times more clarity in general.

Of course this is something that we ought to check ourselves, instead of debating about it. And I'm only an ignoramus repeating what others have said; nevertheless our level of dream clarity is perhaps one concrete way of "measuring our progress".

Yeah but I think it's better not to take it as the sole way. Because even ordinary people can increase clarity of their dreams but it doesn't mean they are any closer to Buddhahood. With some practices though there are explanations of signs that can occur in dreams. But even so, it's nothing to get excited about.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Sally Gross » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:53 pm

A beginner's question which I have, which is perhaps not completely on topic but which has been exercising me for a very long time, concerns the status of dreams and waking visions. I am not in fact prone to visions, but had one -- perhaps a hypnagogic experience, but perhaps not -- when I was very little, and have never been able to forget it. There are also two dreams from my teens which were very striking indeed at the time, which I have never forgotten, and which felt as if they had a special significance. The two dreams stand out in my mind as "big dreams". It says something that I recall them vividly four to five decades along the line. It has felt for some decades as if they are relevant to my attraction to the Dhamma/Dharma, though I have never actually sought explicitly to interrogate them with this in mind. The discussion of dream-yoga brought these to mind, and make me wonder whether I should seek advice concerning them now.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Yontan » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:19 am

nah.
Not unless you really want to.
Amazing things happen to people all the time. It can be downright distracting. Better to practice the preliminaries, settle into good meditation, purify karma, etc.
I used to have semi-lucid out-of-body dreams on a regular basis, talk to ghosts, spend minutes in deja-vous, and so on and it has definitely proven nothing but mara.
"When a pterodactyl lands in your lap, label it 'thinking.'" ─ Pema Chödron
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:27 am

Sally Gross wrote:A beginner's question which I have, which is perhaps not completely on topic but which has been exercising me for a very long time, concerns the status of dreams and waking visions. I am not in fact prone to visions, but had one -- perhaps a hypnagogic experience, but perhaps not -- when I was very little, and have never been able to forget it. There are also two dreams from my teens which were very striking indeed at the time, which I have never forgotten, and which felt as if they had a special significance. The two dreams stand out in my mind as "big dreams". It says something that I recall them vividly four to five decades along the line. It has felt for some decades as if they are relevant to my attraction to the Dhamma/Dharma, though I have never actually sought explicitly to interrogate them with this in mind. The discussion of dream-yoga brought these to mind, and make me wonder whether I should seek advice concerning them now.

If you establish a relation with a teacher, so that he knows you are not one of those people who care too much about each and every dream, are always seeing signs in the clouds and all that jazz, then asking can't hurt. It wouldn't be my first question, but if you feel it may be important, it can't hurt. You are the judge of that.
Knowing you for a while and being well aware of your intellectual finesse, well grounded attitude and solid knowledge about the Buddhadharma, if you asked me something I would always try to give you the best possible answer in all seriousness, since you are not a frivolous person in any way. That has shown in each and every participation I read from you since we first met in E-Sangha. Not being qualified to answer in this case, as in many others, I must leave it to your own discernment. It can't hurt if you feel it may be important. And if you feel that it may be important, it probably is. I say this because I have a strong impression that you're not the type of person that wonders too much about trivialities. Just pick an appropriate time to ask that question to someone qualified to answer, I think. Perhaps ChNN himself, after he knows you a little. I'm just saying... because it could be pertinent to ask right away, I'm not sure, but if i was in your shoes, I would do as I said above. Trying to predict ChNN's answer or guess what he would think or do is way beyond my grasp. But it can't hurt if you feel it may be important.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Jacob » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:46 am

What should i do, according to ChNN's teaching, when i have difficulties in falling asleep in a non-distracted way? Concentrating on A makes it impossible to fall asleep, being just present is not enough, beacuse sooner or later i got distracted and fall in chaotic visions and thoughts, like usually appear before sleep.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby heart » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:53 am

Jacob wrote:What should i do, according to ChNN's teaching, when i have difficulties in falling asleep in a non-distracted way? Concentrating on A makes it impossible to fall asleep, being just present is not enough, beacuse sooner or later i got distracted and fall in chaotic visions and thoughts, like usually appear before sleep.


I heard several Dzogchen masters saying that the moment you fall a sleep, like you describe above, is the most difficult moment to continue in the natural state but if you manage you will continue all through the night in the natural state. But I don't know what ChNNR says, sorry.

/magnus
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:20 pm

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche wrote that completing the Purification of the Six Lokas practice helps a lot for the Practice of the Night & Dream Yoga.

Also Shiné practice in general. Although it is also written that if we perform the Rushens and Semdzin practices diligently and correctly, then there's really no need to do separate Shiné practice.

And Kumbhaka helps for everything, and Yantra Yoga to help for relaxation and coordinating our energy.
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Re: Question concerning Dzogchen practice of Dream Yoga.

Postby Jacob » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:38 pm

Thank you for replying. I'm glad you wrote about this shine and semdzins issue, because i just wanted to create a new topic to ask for that :twothumbsup:
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