Dzogchen Community of ChNNR - pricing and costing issues

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Dzogchen Community of ChNNR - pricing and costing issues

Postby oldbob » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:07 pm

Dear all and All,

I originally thought to place this post in the "Pls introduce me to Dzogchen" thread, but it belongs here.

asunthatneversets wrote:You don't need to donate anything. If you want to that's great but spending money isn't a requirement. The community isn't there to get money out of people. You don't even necessarily have to be a member of the community, it's just nice because it has it's perks with access to archived teachings and you can also have access to restricted webcasts. But it's not necessary, I'm not a member of the community... But I have friends nearby who are so I have the option to go to their spots to catch closed teachings. If I didn't have that option I'd probably become a member, but I choose to give back by purchasing rinpoche's books from my local ling. Either way just know that spending money isn't a requirement and if you stumble into a community where they're trying to charge you money for every little thing and for teachings tell them to f*ck off. There's a lot of scammers out there who prey on people's devotion to the dharma, and they're the lowest of the low.

Even in circumstances where it seems unavoidable like attending a retreat in person, retreats can cost money. But most reasonable teachers will have a sliding scale for their retreats, if you can't afford it then they'll ask what you're comfortable spending, or they'll simply ask for a donation of whatever size you feel is appropriate for your circumstances. There's also the option of volunteering to help set up or clean up and that usually gets you in for free. I'll say this: if a community or teacher turns you away because you can't pay the full amount then they don't have your best interest in mind and they're looking out for their pockets. A true teacher will work with your financial circumstances, because bottom line... They want you to become realized so you can benefit beings.


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

:good: But I think maybe it is better not to say f*uck off to anyone. There are many wolves in Dharma coats and you don't want to disturb them. If you don't disturb them, they allow you to attend and get the Teachings. If you are seen as any threat to their wolfy power trip, maybe they will eat you for lunch, if they have the opportunity, without burping. :smile: There are also innocent lambs who are just acting out their instructions, and are not to be blamed.

The key point is to be able to get the Teachings that you need to advance your practice. How you get them doesn't matter so much. Some Lamas charge $10,000 for Togal. If the Togal gained in this way works, or not, is a separate question. Some Dzogchen Masters happily accept whatever you give in donation to teach Togal: same Togal. Again, whether it works, or not, depends on many secondary causes.

Hopefully determining what you need to advance your practice, comes from the advice of your root Teacher. If you don't have a root Teacher, then you do your best, adapting to your circumstances as required. You have to be a like a honey bee and get the nectar without disturbing the flower. It is always good to give back and help share responsibility for the costs of a Dharma Center, retreat costs and materials and translation costs. These are real costs that someone has to pay for. It is natural to support a Dharma scene and a Teacher who is helping you. We all owe a great thank you to the noble sponsors, and Masters, who support, and make possible, the precious Dharma teachings, both historically and now. :bow: :bow: :bow: :thanks:

The Dzogchen Community is a special case because it is an evolving social / business structure under the guidance of an enlightened Master, ChNNR. ChNNR is a WIsh Fullfilling Gem of Dharma and he has tirelessly traveled around the world giving more than 500 Dzogchen retreats.

AMAZING!

He has made the precious Dzogchen Teachings available to thousands, whom would not have received them otherwise. This is much more rare than a star seen during the day. It is the truly exceptional case of finding a real Buddha, teaching on your computer screen, in your living room, or teaching in person, a few hours drive from your house. :smile:

This is pretty amazing, and his collected works, of a profound original Dzogchen Terma transmission, are like an evolving World Heritage Site.

ChNNR gives a lot of freedom to the normal people who work for him and so there is a wide range of accessibility to the precious Teachings, which has in the past, varied from time to time and place to place, depending on the "view" of the "people responsible." As the "people responsible" practice and change for the better, the access improves.

It is very sad because many people leave the Dzogchen Community because of its apparent lack of kindness. It is not an issue of whether the Dzogchen Community is Buddhist or not. It is an issue as to the style in which the teachings are given. In the Pacceka Buddha style, only those who pay get the Teachings. In the past this is how the DC sometimes behaved. There is the story of the fellow who hitched hiked from Poland to Merigar and was prevented. Last time ChNNR was in NYC, many were turned away and one serious young lady practitioner from Bhutan, who couldn't afford to attend, was said to have gone home and cried for three days. Or the story of the 500 Euro, catered, Yantra yoga retreat, that was for the rich only, poor people needn't attend, and damned be you if you accidentally took a watermelon slice from the rich peoples bowl, by accident. These "kindness" disasters have to do with the mind set of those who are made, "responsible", not with ChNNR or his Teachings.

:heart: Sometimes it is for the best to be turned away. One time, when I was turned away from a retreat at Merigar, I wound up passing my time in the garden of the "Yellow house." I put my ski cap over my eyes so I could look at the specular reflections of the sun light on the strands of wool. When I removed my cap, the sky, which a few minutes before had been clear, now had a checker board cloud pattern exactly like the warp and woof of the threads in my cap. Many rainbows then appeared over the Gompa where ChNNR was teaching. The rainbows were seen by many people. A beautiful French woman, who had been through the three year retreat, and who also had been prevented from attending the teachings, came over to me and said, "I know what you are doing." I said, "Noooo, noooo, noooo, (trying to mimic her French English) it's from Rinpoche." :smile:

So the key point is that even if you are apparently prevented from getting the teachings, you can still get the teachings in another way, but maybe not in the way you thought you were going to get them, and maybe what you get is for the best.

Unkindness, while sad for the poor who were turned away, is devastating to the Dzogchen Community because normal people who are pursuing precious Dharma in the conventional sense, which includes kindness as a fundamental construct, take one look at the apparent lack of kindness and leave without looking back.

It is sad because I really believe that the people who are "responsible" think they are creating the best system for the financial success of the DC, but the numbers prove different. In the US, sometimes there are very efficiently run Dharma events where the only attendees are the "Team Leaders", and sometimes only one of them. This occurred in New York recently when the Dharma Event was an exploration of the "Purification of the 6 Lokas" practice. This is a really wonderful and effective Dzogchen experiential practice which should be of interest to, and helpful to anyone in the human condition, if it were presented in an accessible way.

In the face of unkindness, everyone but the Team Leaders, (who are paid with power and access) heads for the hills, until Rinpoche shows up again. Then people come to get the personal contact with a realized Master, and then head for the hills again.

In the Mahayana style, the Teachings are posted in a way allowing low cost / no cost access, for example, open web casts, with supporting pictures and written material, that are available to all without membership requirements. Effective transmission is given on line - and no one is turned away.

In the Tantrayana style, Dzogchen Teachings are given at the appropriate level of the practitioner and according to the prevailing customs. This is working with circumstances, both for the practitioner and the Master.

In Dzogchen style Dzogchen, Rinpoche is constantly giving teachings without any characteristic what-so-ever, and there is nothing to be done to "get" the precious Teachings. This is the fruition of the great treasury of Dzogchen in the person of a realized Dzogchen Master. Dzogchen Masters are always "Teaching" for free without intention or limit. Goes with the territory. :smile:

In the Dzogchen style of Teaching, it is also completely correct for a Master to go into retreat (Ayu Khandro) and not come out much. All "teaching - benefit for others," is done "on the wind" and there is no immediate contact with others. Perhaps this is why the stars shine: a joke but maybe there is an analogy to this. When a Dzogchen Master passes on, it is said that he / she has the capacity to take all the individuals whom he /she has had contact with into the Natural State (hopefully you are not driving on a freeway at the time.) :smile: Dzogchen Masters are not obliged to teach in public.

So the DC contains the evolving swirl of all of these styles of Teachings. Things are getting better and now there are disclaimers that anyone who cannot afford full price can contact those responsible to work things out. If anyone finds a Teaching of the Dzogchen Community that does not allow for poor people to contact the "people responsible" to work something out, please bring it to the attention of the Person Responsible.

So, in the past, you may have seen the DC acting as if unkind, if you were looking at a Pacceka Buddha framework presentation in which people were turned away because of lack of funds.

This is now changed.

Easy access to the Teachings will overcome these issues.

Kindness matters to those of us belonging to the fundamentalist Buddha Seed Low Seat school (don't Google - it doesn't exist.) :smile:

May this be of use to someone!

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, in good health and with success in all things.

ob
oldbob
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:13 pm

I didn't mean literally telling someone to f*ck off, I wasn't advocating vitriolic behavior or suggesting that anyone conduct themselves in a disrespectful manner. There's just no need to bother with shark-like teachers squeezing money out of their students for every little thing. Not sure if your togal example is actually true... But charging $10,000 for a teaching is ludicrous, that isn't right IMO. I would seriously question the motives of such a teacher. We all know there's vultures out there who will take advantage of people if given the chance, well individuals involved in the dharma community aren't excluded. Even though it's a noble teaching which is meant to bring out the best in all of us, doesn't mean it always does. Humanity's dark side lurks in the shadows and preys on the innocent and it always will. And I don't say that to sound pessimistic because I'm an incredibly optimistic person, I'm merely being realistic, not all that glitters is gold.
Last edited by asunthatneversets on Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Lhasa » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:37 pm

:good:
Lhasa
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:06 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:But charging $10,000 for a teaching is ludicrous, that isn't right IMO.


Bob was referring to a voluntary donation made to a Lama in order to sponser a teaching.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Wesley1982 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:29 pm

The idea was to cover the basic costs of regular membership.
User avatar
Wesley1982
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:But charging $10,000 for a teaching is ludicrous, that isn't right IMO.


Bob was referring to a voluntary donation made to a Lama in order to sponser a teaching.

M


Oh ok, that a generous donation! :smile:
asunthatneversets
 
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Wesley1982 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:17 am

Even more $ can be used to build a Buddhist temple center with a solid concrete foundation.
User avatar
Wesley1982
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:45 pm
Location: Magga ~ Path to Liberation.

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Sherlock » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:29 am

That's interesting and quite sad IMO. I never experienced things like that with the local DC, but I have heard from some American practitioners that their local DC tends to attract a lot of rich people who like to close things up to others.
Sherlock
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:55 am

Good post Oldbob ... it could have a place in The Mirror.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Josef » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:55 am

Sherlock wrote:That's interesting and quite sad IMO. I never experienced things like that with the local DC, but I have heard from some American practitioners that their local DC tends to attract a lot of rich people who like to close things up to others.

I have never encountered anything like this in my six or so years participating with the DC and have always been treated with kindness and a welcoming attitude by other members as well as teachers.
Of all the dharma organizations I have participated with the DC is my home. It has been the best for me in every way.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Lhasa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:07 pm

Sönam wrote:Good post Oldbob ... it could have a place in The Mirror.

Sönam


Or sent directly to Rinpoche.
Lhasa
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:51 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby oldbob » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:56 pm

Josef wrote:
Sherlock wrote:That's interesting and quite sad IMO. I never experienced things like that with the local DC, but I have heard from some American practitioners that their local DC tends to attract a lot of rich people who like to close things up to others.

I have never encountered anything like this in my six or so years participating with the DC and have always been treated with kindness and a welcoming attitude by other members as well as teachers.
Of all the dharma organizations I have participated with the DC is my home. It has been the best for me in every way.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am really glad to hear that you were treated with kindness and a welcoming attitude by other members as well as teachers. This is how it should be. ChNNR has always said that the old timers should meet the new comers and welcome them. At every retreat I go up to some people I don't know and welcome them. Ask any of the DC nobility when was the last time that they introduced themselves to a newcomer in open-hearted simple friendliness?

Perhaps you were able to pay for everything. For people with money the DC works very well. I've gone to 3-4 retreats a year for 30 years. I am a very happy camper: nothing to say and couldn't if I wanted to.

I am suggesting that for the poor it has been different.

"I'm living on disability, so I've been looking at ways to find teachings that don't cost so much. Poor people don't seem to be remembered in yuppie based sanghas...I'm about ready to pull away from the DC webcasts because I can't afford to buy the books to learn the practices,..."

"When I was trying to figure out what I needed to do for the WWT, I told Harold, the secretary, that I didn't have the money for a membership. He didn't respond to the email. I think if there was any provision made for poor folks, he would have told me. So I went into debt to get the membership, and he charged me full price, nine months for the price of 12. Such a deal.
I don't want to go down that road again."

The Dzogchen Community works for some, but many outside the DC cannot begin to afford it.

The safe and sure path of SMS works for some, but many within the DC cannot begin to afford it.

Easy access to the Teachings will solve all the issues.

I am reminded of the famous Dzogchen dictum: As ye do unto the least of them ye do unto me. :heart:
oldbob
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:07 pm

I understand, agree and support what you say ... many games of power do exist in the Gar organization, I suppose it's the chink in the armour.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:18 pm

Despite all this talk about de-institutionalization of Dzogchen here at Dharma Wheel, CNNR's organization strikes me as a pretty well-run institution. But in any institution, you're going to have the commonly-observed phenomena of money, power, politics, etc. This has nothing to do with Dzogchen or any Dharma. I would think the "webcast" aspect of the organization would do a lot to mitigate the "insular, clubby, exclusivist" sort of vibe that you find at Dharma Centers. Perhaps at the actual centers, it's the same as everywhere else. Though in fairness, I've visited a few Dharma Centers where people did go out of their way to make me feel comfortable, even though they had never met or seen me before.
When I lived in a center, I tried my best to include newcomers and to actively engage them after sessions. Then again, some folks see that as proselytizing or "solicitation." It's a fine line.......

I dunno the Gars from Timbuktu, of course, so my words may not reflect accurately on the situation. Just some general observations.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2727
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:21 pm

conebeckham wrote:
I dunno the Gars from Timbuktu, of course, so my words may not reflect accurately on the situation. Just some general observations.


Different gars, different energies. Tsegyalgar is a bit heavy sometimes, but maybe that is because it is in New England.

The power issues in the gars is ameliorated by the fact that board of directors must rotate every three years. No one can be a member of the board for more than three years.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:The power issues in the gars is ameliorated by the fact that board of directors must rotate every three years. No one can be a member of the board for more than three years.

M


In theory ... I had the personnal experience in a specific relation that, once one has been engaged in a responsibility, one stay involved as a consulting reference and impact Gar relations over his mandate.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
Sönam
 
Posts: 1981
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:39 pm

Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The power issues in the gars is ameliorated by the fact that board of directors must rotate every three years. No one can be a member of the board for more than three years.

M


In theory ... I had the personnal experience in a specific relation that, once one has been engaged in a responsibility, one stay involved as a consulting reference and impact Gar relations over his mandate.

Sönam



Sure, one weakness of the model is that the Gakyil loses its memory every three years. Another problem is that sometimes people only go onto the Gakyil because they do not like the way things were being run. But the latter is not a good motivation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby oldbob » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:04 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Sönam wrote:Good post Oldbob ... it could have a place in The Mirror.

Sönam


Or sent directly to Rinpoche.


:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

The Mirror, the newspaper of the DC, is symptomatic of how access to information is nickeled and dimed within the Dzogchen Community: the people publishing the Mirror are working very hard, have good hearts, understand the material, write well, and I love them dearly; the web site is accessible and well laid out, and the Mirror is a failure for many people.

If you want access to the Mirror, you have to have a "subscription." To get a subscription you have to be a member, and then unless you are a special member you have to buy access to the archives to be able to read past issues @ 4e each. For someone with money this is fine. For someone to whom 4e is a day's food, this is a cruel joke. For someone from Moldova where 50e is a month's salary, even a reduced membership is too much. Many people with kind hearts, WHO LOVE RINPOCHE, THE TEACHINGS, AND THE DZOGCHEN COMMUNITY, take one look at this "business plan" and run the other way. It is like biting into a piece of aluminum foil in an otherwise tasty chocolate cake. Many people do not have the capacity to pull out the pieces of aluminum foil from the otherwise very tasty Sacher Torte (the ultimate chocolate cake) of the DC.

Many throw out the cake, because chewing aluminum foil is such an unpleasant experience.

Another idea is to have the Mirror be free on line (archives and all) to help convey the precious teachings of ChNNR to the general public and within the Dzogchen Community.

Fancy does not matter. The key point is to get the information out there to the people who could benefit by it, in an easy kindly way, for rich and poor equally. Then everybody gets to eat a tasty piece of the cake, with no aluminum foil to spoil the experience.

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/sacher-torte/

Story time.

It was long ago and far away in a land over the sea ---.

One very hot day in Grosseto, when I was walking from the Questura, back to the bus station, I stopped into a little bar to ask for a glass of "local" water. The pretty bar lady was wearing a Tibetan mala around her neck. So in my broken Italian I asked her if she liked Tibetan things. She said, "Oh yes. I like Tibetan things very much. I've been to India and have met some Tibetan Teachers there." I then asked her if she knew of Merigar and of the Teachings there. She said, Oh yes, I like the Master very much but the people there are always asking for money for everything so I don't go there." I thanked her for the water and left.

This is how it is for many people who come into contact with the DC. Poor DC.

Open access to the precious Teachings will solve these issues.

Rinpoche is Aware, and with kindly dialog and collaboration is evolving the DC.

Long life to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oldbob
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby oldbob » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:12 pm

conebeckham wrote:Despite all this talk about de-institutionalization of Dzogchen here at Dharma Wheel, CNNR's organization strikes me as a pretty well-run institution. But in any institution, you're going to have the commonly-observed phenomena of money, power, politics, etc. This has nothing to do with Dzogchen or any Dharma. I would think the "webcast" aspect of the organization would do a lot to mitigate the "insular, clubby, exclusivist" sort of vibe that you find at Dharma Centers. Perhaps at the actual centers, it's the same as everywhere else. Though in fairness, I've visited a few Dharma Centers where people did go out of their way to make me feel comfortable, even though they had never met or seen me before.
When I lived in a center, I tried my best to include newcomers and to actively engage them after sessions. Then again, some folks see that as proselytizing or "solicitation." It's a fine line.......

I dunno the Gars from Timbuktu, of course, so my words may not reflect accurately on the situation. Just some general observations.


:good:
oldbob
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of ChNNR for Newcomers

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:15 pm

Bob:

You have been complaining about this issue for years. The fact is that there are options for people if they seek them out. There are disability/low income memberships.

Media costs money to produce.

I happen to know for a fact that the financial policies in the DC come directly from ChNN. When you complain about the money, you are complaining about the boss.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Next

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot] and 13 guests

>