the ethnic conflict in Burma

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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Nemo » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:36 pm

How do you deny the genocide of 3 million idol worshipers next door in 1971. They have a track record of genocidal madness in living memory. Wouldn't you be a bit uneasy about letting them invade your country considering they probably want you dead and consider you less than human?

You should read the Koran before you start spouting more nonsense. By Koranic law all of us must be put to death. Being Buddhists we are not even allowed to convert to Islam. Read the later chapters. Mohammed by today's standards would be a war criminal. He had all his detractors murdered. They had no reformation. The Koran is to be taken literally by Muslims. Even today to take it as a metaphor is blasphemy punishable by death.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:04 pm

I have read the Koran and, if you bothered reading the article, it's the Buddhists doing the murdering in 2012.
As for this:
The Koran is to be taken literally by Muslims. Even today to take it as a metaphor is blasphemy punishable by death.
You are talking about Wahhabism or Salafism, this is not the dominant form of Islam, though there is an attempt by some to make it so.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:55 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I have read the Koran and, if you bothered reading the article, it's the Buddhists doing the murdering in 2012.
As for this:
The Koran is to be taken literally by Muslims. Even today to take it as a metaphor is blasphemy punishable by death.
You are talking about Wahhabism or Salafism, this is not the dominant form of Islam, though there is an attempt by some to make it so.
:namaste:


Interestingly, for most Buddhists Islam = Islam fundamentalism :shrug: Plenty to be said on the topic, which is entirely beyond the scope of the thread. Some interesting facts may be found here:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... islam.html

I've met and become acquainted with dozens of Muslims coming from Iran, Turkey and Pakistan. Some of them considered themselves very religious, others didn't care; most were just about as interested in the doctrine of Islam and its dogmas as your average European Christian is in learning the minutiae of her or his creed.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby LastLegend » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:12 pm

The 6 major religions in Indonesia is Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism. I have yet to see religious wars there unless I am wrong of course.

I sincerely believe if Buddhists really practice Buddha's teachings, then conflicts will not seek them.

There is a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment going on. Never Muslims were portrayed in positive lights. This must be political and religious. Maybe Christians versus Muslims like it always has been?

I have spoken to Muslims and they say the Qoran speaks of love and not of violence. One Muslim, my coworker also told me that Arabic is really hard to translate into English. Sometimes there are no words in English to describe an Arabic word.
Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country, with 87 percent of its citizens identifying as Muslim.[16] Traditionally, Muslims have been concentrated in the more populous western islands of Indonesia such as Java and Sumatra. In less populous eastern islands, the Muslim population is proportionally lower.[17] Most Indonesian Muslims are Sunnis. Around one million are Shias, who are concentrated around Jakarta.[18]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Nemo » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:30 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I have read the Koran and, if you bothered reading the article, it's the Buddhists doing the murdering in 2012.
As for this:
The Koran is to be taken literally by Muslims. Even today to take it as a metaphor is blasphemy punishable by death.
You are talking about Wahhabism or Salafism, this is not the dominant form of Islam, though there is an attempt by some to make it so.
:namaste:


Which do you think they like to practice next door considering they murdered three million idolaters 40 years ago?
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:41 pm

How many people have been murdered in the name of Christianity? Have you read the new testament? Is there anything in there which compels Christians to murder? And yet Christians murder. People use all sorts of reasoning to validate their stupidity: religious, political, economic, etc... But what it comes down to is that some individual Muslims/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists/etc... murder and use their religion to justify their actions and the majority of Muslims/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists/etc... don't murder and use their religion to justify their actions. So I ask you: do you judge the religion based on the actions of the small minority or on the vast majority? :shrug:
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby dzoki » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
I think you will find that the painful punishement is to go to hell as punishemnt for being a disbeliever.


This is quite illogical in the context of the second verse. In fact it is an order from Mohamed to his followers. Those who do not submit to muslim forces should be punished.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."
The passage you quoted talks about a specific decisive battle at Badr where Muhammed led his forces against his main enemies (which had an army three times larger than the opne he led) the Meccans and decisively defeated them. Needless to say, defeating such a large force and taking one of the richest cities on the arab peninsula was seen to have occured due to divine intervention. But, Muhammed was actually born in Mecca but had to escape religious persecution in his mome town by runnig away with his followers to Medina. So it was all about political power and revenge. Isn't it great when religion and politics coincide?[/quote]

You are right, this verses vere recoreded (according to Hadith) after the battle of Badr and that is why that passage has been used to justify the atrocities against the infidel in the areas which muslims conquered.

gregkavarnos wrote:
Joshua Chapter 6...

I think that on the basis of statements like this and the actions of the Israeli state and fundamentalist Jews in the occupied territories that Jews should not be allowed to migrate to countries that don't have a Jewish majority population. I mean just look at their history! :rolleye:


Are we discussing judaism now?

Buddhists in Burma did not act a buddhist way and there is not apology for that. What I wanted to say is that Huseng is quite right in pointing out that muslim communities are a source of trouble and there is a specific reason for that, the reason is Islam. If you take Mohammed as an ideal role model for a muslim man, then what have you got? A pedophile and a murderer. Not a holy man at all. So how can following such an example lead to peaceful behavior?
So every time a Buddhist kills it's not Buddhism to blame it's the individual Buddhist but if a Muslim kills it's not the individual Muslim to blame but Islam (and Muslims in general)? Crappy logic!

Personally, I know LOTS of peaceful Muslims.
:namaste:[/quote]

Nope, unfortunatelly logic is following: When a buddhist kills another being, with the exception of specific cases (such as killing a mass murderer in orther to prevent him from killing others), he does not follow dharma. But when muslims kill, they might have been invited to do so by inspirations from quran or by fatwa issued by their clergy.
Believe me I have heard things from imams that would make your head spin. There is also a fatwa to kill HH. the Dalailama.

Yes there are places in quran where killing is condemned, but these are in general suras "recorded" before Mohammed´s forces won a battle at Badr and conquered Mekka.

In any case as Huseng said, look into the history. What happened to Nalanda and Odantapuri in India? What happened in Gilgit, Odiyana, Vijaya and other buddhist countries? Also at present one can see how other religions are treated in Bangladesh, where muslims run a genocide agains indigeous buddhist population. In Iraq where christians are threatened and killed. In Turkey, where it is not even possible to build a new church.

I don´t know what branch of islam your friends follow, but if they are suni or shia, you can ask them, whether they would be in favour of imposing sharia in your country.

I am not saying that now we should take up the ideas of BNP and get rid of immigrants. I believe that goverments in Europe and South East asian countries should simply outlaw the public worship of islam and ban it as a harmful ideology, just as nazism is banned in most civilized countries. I have no problem with muslims, but with the ideology which many of them either actively or pasively support. So people can stay, if they abide by laws, but islamic ideology should not be tolerated for the sake of all other citizens. They can worship whatever they want in private, but public propagation of islam including building of mosques should not be, in my opinion, allowed.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby plwk » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:47 pm

Well greg... there's something Greek that comes to mind... ξένος & φόβος (xenos & phobos), meaning xenophobia... it happens in any country... 'Buddhist' or non-Buddhist
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby LastLegend » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:47 pm

It is also possible that the Myanmar military government Junta have set up the conflict between Muslims and Buddhists considering that Buddhists many times have been protesting against the Junta regime.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 37,00.html
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-Burm ... 16968.html
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 83,0,0,1,0
http://www.milescollins.com/wordpress/b ... hist-sites
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 93,0,0,1,0

From the time of the signing of the Burmese Constitution in 1948, ethnic minorities have been denied Constitutional rights, access to lands that were traditionally controlled by their peoples and participation in the government. The various minority ethnic groups have been consistently oppressed by the dominant Burman majority, but have also suffered at the hands of warlords and regional ethnic alliances. Religion also plays a role in the ethnic conflicts that have taken place. Muslims, Hindus, Christians and Buddhists all live in Burma. These religious differences have led to several incidents that have affected hundreds of thousands of citizens in Burma. In 1991, approximately 250,000 Muslim Rohingyas (an ethnic group from southwestern Burma) were forced from their homes by Burman forces .[1] They crossed the border into Bangladesh, where they were given refugee status and aid from the international community that was not available to them inside Burma.

The current government of Burma is led by Prime Minister (and General) Thein Sein. This current regime has been responsible for the displacement of several hundred thousand citizens, both inside and outside of Burma. The Karen, Karenni, and Mon ethnic groups have been forced to seek asylum in neighboring Thailand, where they are also abused by an unfriendly and unsympathetic government.[citation needed] These groups are perhaps more fortunate than the Wa and Shan ethnic groups who have become Internally Displaced Peoples in their own state since being removed from lands by the military junta in 2000. There are reportedly 600,000 of these Internally Displaced Peoples living in Burma today. Many are trying to escape forced labour in the military or for one of the many state-sponsored drug cartels.[citation needed] This displacement of peoples has led to both human rights violations as well as the exploitation of minority ethnic groups at the hands of the dominant Burman group. The primary actors in these ethnic struggles include but are not limited to the Government of Burma (junta), the Karen National Union and the Mong Tai Army.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Burma
Last edited by LastLegend on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:54 pm

Nope, unfortunatelly logic is following: When a buddhist kills another being, with the exception of specific cases (such as killing a mass murderer in orther to prevent him from killing others), he does not follow dharma. But when muslims kill, they might have been invited to do so by inspirations from quran or by fatwa issued by their clergy.
So how much does this detail really matter if you consider that in either case the person is dead? Not at all? Completely irrelevant? No bearing whatsoever? Ask the dead guy/gal?
I am not saying that now we should take up the ideas of BNP and get rid of immigrants. I believe that goverments in Europe and South East asian countries should simply outlaw the public worship of islam and ban it as a harmful ideology, just as nazism is banned in most civilized countries. I have no problem with muslims, but with the ideology which many of them either actively or pasively support. So people can stay, if they abide by laws, but islamic ideology should not be tolerated for the sake of all other citizens. They can worship whatever they want in private, but public propagation of islam including building of mosques should not be, in my opinion, allowed.
You reckon you can just ban a religion that has 1.62 billion adherents as a harmful ideology? :crazy:

I'm finished with this conversation. It is yet another show piece as to why Buddhism is in decline (and should be). Tacit support of violent reprisal and religious intolerance. Keep up the good work people!
:namaste:

PS
It is also possible that the Myanmar military government Junta have set up the conflict between Muslims and Buddhists considering that Buddhists many times have been protesting against the Junta regime.
The old divide and conquer, and Buddhists, basing their actions in emotional poisons, have brought right into it.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Nemo » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:01 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:How many people have been murdered in the name of Christianity? Have you read the new testament? Is there anything in there which compels Christians to murder? And yet Christians murder. People use all sorts of reasoning to validate their stupidity: religious, political, economic, etc... But what it comes down to is that some individual Muslims/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists/etc... murder and use their religion to justify their actions and the majority of Muslims/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists/etc... don't murder and use their religion to justify their actions. So I ask you: do you judge the religion based on the actions of the small minority or on the vast majority? :shrug:
:namaste:


Umm genocide, three million slaughtered just across the borer, 40 YEARS AGO.
No apologies. No admission of guilt. Many who committed the atrocities are still alive. Celebrated and pious members of society. No one was ever censured. This is where the people invading Myanmar are coming from. I can see why they are scared. I am scared for them.

Was there ever a Buddhist genocide? I can't think of a single one.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby LastLegend » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:01 pm

Never mind. I understood what you said there.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:05 pm

A quick Wikipedia search:


Bangladeshi authorities claim that as many as 3 million people were killed, although the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, an official Pakistan Government investigation, put the figure as low as 26,000 civilian casualties.[4] The international media and reference books in English have also published figures which vary greatly from 200,000 to 3,000,000 for Bangladesh as a whole, with 300,000 to 500,000 being a figure quoted by news outlets such as the BBC for the estimated death toll as counted by independent researchers.


Somewhere between 26,000 and 3 Million (most likely between 200,000 and 1 Million at most it seems) people dead is a lot of senseless killing no doubt.

Yet it is way less killing in comparison to:


Wikipedia wrote:Mass killings occurred under some Communist regimes during the twentieth century with an estimated death toll numbering between 85 and 100 million.


I guarantee that Muslims haven't killed even close to that many people during the 20th Century.

And as Gregkavarnos said, Christians have killed a lot too; and I'm willing to bet that they've killed even more than Muslims have (even without taking into account that the former had a 500 year head-start).

A related quote by a Rosicrucian Christian Mystic:


Max Heindel wrote:"The religion miscalled Christianity has therefore been the bloodiest religion known, not excepting Mohammedanism, which in this respect is somewhat akin to our malpracticed Christianity. On the battle field and in the Inquisition innumerable and unspeakable atrocities have been committed in the name of the gentle Nazarene. The Sword and the Wine Cup--the perverted Cross and Communion Chalice--have been the means by which the more powerful of the so-called Christian nations gained supremacy over the heathen peoples, and even over other but weaker nations professing the same faith as their conquerors. "The most cursory reading of the history of the Greco-Latin, Teutonic and Anglo-Saxon Races will corroborate this."
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Nemo » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:15 pm

I would go as low as 1.5 million murdered and an additional 500,000 woman raped. 26,000 is laughable. There were also roughly 8 million refugees that fled. Both India and Bangladesh try to cover up this atrocity as it brings forth much unrest between Muslims and Hindus. Both sides try to low ball and underestimate the horror of what happened. Since there has been no justice for the dead I'll go with the high end figure and leave it at three million out of respect. With no awareness of the evil that happened it could easily happen again. Most genocidal maniacs and their cadre are at least deposed and the countries they are from allowed to heal. But that never happened here. The inferiors were disposed of and everyone patted themselves on the back for a job well done. Until there is some national self awareness they are the equivalent of a Jew free Nazi Republic.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:16 pm

LastLegend wrote:It is something to think about. I believe everyone can form their own opinion.

Greg, do you think what I posted there is propaganda from the Western media against the Myanmar Junta? It is possible. I am here to explore. Shed some lights my friend.
It was due to the inadequacies and poltical ambitions of the Greek Military junta in 1974 that lead to the invasion of the island of Cyprus by Turkish forces and its partition into an independent state and a Turkish protectorate. The invasion lead to the deaths of 2000 people and another 3000 were wounded. About 200,000 were displaced with Greeks leaving the Turkish occupied zone and Turkish... This happened just after the British occupying forces withdrew from Cyprus and announced the independence of the island from British rule. The Greek junta used this to bolser it's anti-Turkish program (ie it sacrificed Greek citizens and allowed the occupation of Greek territories for its ends). So I do not find it at all peculiar if the Burmese junta is playing the same silly games.
:namaste:
PS Turkish and Greek Cypriots had been living together in peace on the island for hundreds of years before this.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby dzoki » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You reckon you can just ban a religion that has 1.62 billion adherents as a harmful ideology? :crazy:

I'm finished with this conversation. It is yet another show piece as to why Buddhism is in decline (and should be). Tacit support of violent reprisal and religious intolerance. Keep up the good work people!


How many communists or nazis are there or were there? And yet these ideologies are now banned in many states.

Come on violent reprisal and religious intolerance? In my country nacizm is banned by I havent seen nazis suffer any violent reprisal. They just go to prison if they go public with their ideas, that is all.
As I said only tollerant can be tolerated, the intolerant cannot. How do you want to tolerate a growing minority of intolerants and keep the majority of citizens content with their personal rights being limited by that minority?

One minor example from UK:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... right.html

Dog unclean? What does that have to do with spirituality or with religion? It´s just plain nonsense.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:07 pm

The Telegraph..otherwise known as the torygraph is about as right-wing, and as reliable, as Fox News.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:20 pm

dzoki wrote:Dog unclean? What does that have to do with spirituality or with religion? It´s just plain nonsense.


Precisely. Nothing to do with Islam per se. It's a problem with troubled individuals, not with spirituality or religion. And if it's true there's been some strange court rulings, it's also a problem with jurisdiction which fails to properly address the religion-vs-freedom issue.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby tobes » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:33 am

I just cannot believe this thread.

Do I really need to point out that it is the Muslims who are being persecuted in Burma?

And this is being justified on a Buddhist forum?

I'm sorry, there is no kind way to say this: what an absolute disgrace. Repugnant. Unacceptable.
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Re: the ethnic conflict in Burma

Postby Nemo » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:20 pm

And how are the Buddhists and Hindus doing in Bangladesh? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Iran? All dead.

There is a pattern. Pretentious Western Kumbabya bullshit stops working once you leave suburbia. Unless you are arguing that extermination is an acceptable response when weighed against committing violence to protect oneself. That I can accept.

This is a bit like putting Nazis beside Israel and having Nazis cross the border. "We are Nazis but not the ones who killed the Jews. You can trust us Juden."

Until the genocide is put right there can be no coexistence. They will do it again at the first opportunity.
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