Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby username » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:56 pm

mutsuk wrote:
username wrote: Say hello to JLA from me.

I sure will! What name should I forward in the message ? :D


Tell him a new generation of ingie Bon readers like mutsuk have taken over & in unthought of ways they will actually help the cause. Love you but must leave you mutsy :)
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:57 pm

Mutsok wrote:
I do suggest here the knowing of the existence of Longde in ZZNG or ZZKY?
There are no mentions of the expressions "Semdé", "Longdé" or "Mengakdé" in ZZNG. What is ZZKY?


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your replies.

- ZZKY would be ZZ Kagyud.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Bhusuku » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:- ZZKY would be ZZ Kagyud.

What is Zhang Zhung Kagyud?
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:25 pm

Bhusuku wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:- ZZKY would be ZZ Kagyud.

What is Zhang Zhung Kagyud?



Tashi delek,

ZZKY would be the oral tradition. (in a broader sense, like teached today for a group of more than 9 persons)
ZZNG would be the single line tradition. (in a single transmission sense)

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Bhusuku » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:33 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Bhusuku wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:- ZZKY would be ZZ Kagyud.

What is Zhang Zhung Kagyud?



Tashi delek,

ZZKY would be the oral tradition. (in a broader sense, like teached today for a group of more than 9 persons)
ZZNG would be the single line tradition. (in a single transmission sense)

Mutsog Marro
KY


Ah, ok. I thought it has something to do with the kagyü lineage (i.e. kagyü school), so I was a little bit confused...
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby mutsuk » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:37 pm

Sorry KY but it's not like this.

ZZNG is a collective name for :
1. Kagyu Korzhi which are the four main cycles (or texts and complementary texts) of the collection, and
2. Nyamgyu or the experiential transmission.

In other explanations you'd have the ZZNG divided into :
1. Ngak-chok — tantric instructions and
2. Semchok — dzogchen instructions.

Ngakchok has several subdivisions centered around Meri practices.
Semchok is divided into : 1. ZZNG proper (i.e. the Kagyu Korzhi), and 2. Nyamgyu.

As far as I know the expression "ZZ Kagyu" does not exist. Moreover, Kagyu Korzhi and Nyamgyu have line of transmission based on : 1. single transmission and 2. ordinary transmission (the contents are exactly the same, the difference being if you're meant to be a lineage holder or not).

When talking about ZZNG, one generally refers to the Kagyu Korzhi. Otherwise, one refers to the entire collection (of ngakchok+semchok) but this is highly unlikely to be done.
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Bhusuku » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:29 pm

mutsuk wrote:Sorry KY but it's not like this.

ZZNG is a collective name for :
1. Kagyu Korzhi which are the four main cycles (or texts and complementary texts) of the collection, and
2. Nyamgyu or the experiential transmission.

In other explanations you'd have the ZZNG divided into :
1. Ngak-chok — tantric instructions and
2. Semchok — dzogchen instructions.

Ngakchok has several subdivisions centered around Meri practices.
Semchok is divided into : 1. ZZNG proper (i.e. the Kagyu Korzhi), and 2. Nyamgyu.

As far as I know the expression "ZZ Kagyu" does not exist. Moreover, Kagyu Korzhi and Nyamgyu have line of transmission based on : 1. single transmission and 2. ordinary transmission (the contents are exactly the same, the difference being if you're meant to be a lineage holder or not).

When talking about ZZNG, one generally refers to the Kagyu Korzhi. Otherwise, one refers to the entire collection (of ngakchok+semchok) but this is highly unlikely to be done.


How much has been translated from the Semchok part of the ZZNG? And has the snyan rgyud rgyal ba'i phyag khrid been translated already?
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Usernamae wrote:
His criticisms of ChNNR never came to my mind.


Mutsok wrote:
It's not because he does not agree with "presence" that he is critical against Norbu Rinpoche. After your attacks against JL, I bet the only person you had in mind was JL. Again, don't hide behind your username and have some courage.


Tashi delek,

Everybody thanks for the replies.

I see that JL does' t agree with the translation of presence regarding Rigpa? Did realise there is also difference between Awareness used for Rigpa in Bon and Knowledge used in ChNN' s translation of Rigpa.

There are persons here aboard who defend that JL has critics against the use of Awareness for Rigpa and that he does prefer the use of presence above the use of Awareness.

But it would be also interesting to know more about the other critics / other points of view, against ChNN.
It will mean that there are some persons who are not on 1 line with his Teachings.

For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Bhusuku » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:47 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.

I like "George" best. :lol:
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:03 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Sönam » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M


Then you don't translate ... you take it as it already is.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:17 pm

Sönam wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M


Then you don't translate ... you take it as it already is.

Sönam


Correct -- or in my case, backtranslate it to vidyā.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M



Tashi delek,

The whole Dharma does consist out of only words.
It is the meaning of those words which is important but also the correct use of it.

And i see clearly that in Nyingma and Bon, there are words used in the same manner, which are not used like that somewhere else and that is for some of us very confusing / strange.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:58 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M



[color=#000080]Tashi delek,

The whole Dharma does consist out of only words.
It is the meaning of those words which is important but also the correct use of it.



what is important is the meaning behind the words.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:30 pm

quote="Malcolm"]
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
For me personal Rigpa is Awareness like prefered in Bon and Nyingma and not Knowledge like translated in ChNN' s DC.



Honestly, rig pa is just a word. You either understand what it means or you don't.

M



[color=#000080]Tashi delek,

The whole Dharma does consist out of only words.
It is the meaning of those words which is important but also the correct use of it.



what is important is the meaning behind the words.[/quote]
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:33 pm

[/quote] Malcolm wrote:
what is important is the meaning behind the words.[/quote]

Tashi delek,

Seen in the light of study, different words can have different meanings.
Seen in the light of practice the words are experienced in their (understood) meaning.

It is not for nothing i guess, that persons like JL, would have problems with the accepting of "presence".

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby username » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:20 pm

This purple color is nice, maybe a little darker if possible.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby Sönam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:28 am

kalden yungdrung wrote: Malcolm wrote:
what is important is the meaning behind the words.

Tashi delek,

Seen in the light of study, different words can have different meanings.
Seen in the light of practice the words are experienced in their (understood) meaning.

It is not for nothing i guess, that persons like JL, would have problems with the accepting of "presence".

Mutsog Marro
KY


Because with a certain focus it sounds like a mind process ... with another focus it does'nt. But words in our different languages are charged with history and habits, so they could never answer the same way than the original one.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:10 am

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: Malcolm wrote:
what is important is the meaning behind the words.

Tashi delek,

Seen in the light of study, different words can have different meanings.
Seen in the light of practice the words are experienced in their (understood) meaning.

It is not for nothing i guess, that persons like JL, would have problems with the accepting of "presence".

Mutsog Marro
KY


Because with a certain focus it sounds like a mind process ... with another focus it does'nt. But words in our different languages are charged with history and habits, so they could never answer the same way than the original one.

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Well the topic is not so difficult to understand e.g. the use of words to explain a certain meaning.
The meaning is always reflected in the practice over and over again.
But if in the theory for instance the visions would be explained as knowing them then the confusing factor would be for instance knowing them by the mind of karma.

I don' t agree with you, words have a precise meaning in every language. No is no in every language.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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