Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

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plwk
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Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby plwk » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:20 am


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jundo cohen
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:34 am

A lovely, sensible, powerful, hopeful teaching by Stephen Batchelor.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundo cohen on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Indrajala » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:45 am

I'm glad a lot more people attend talks by HHDL.

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tad etat sarvajñānaṃ karuṇāmūlaṃ bodhicittahetukam upāyaparyavasānam iti |

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jundo cohen
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:50 am

Well, even more folks turn out for the Rev. Billy Graham.

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or the Haj in Mecca ...

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http://www.tillhecomes.org/more-converts-billy-graham/

It is not a matter of number of ticket holders.

Gassho, Jundo
Last edited by jundo cohen on Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

plwk
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby plwk » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:58 am

:rolling:

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Quiet Heart
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Quiet Heart » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:28 am

:smile:
Didn't have time to hear it all before I had to do something else.
I see why to some it might ne controversial....but at first hearing...at least the half I heard...it seems there are some good points, and well worth thinking about.
Will have to withold judgement anyhow until I've had some time to think about them.
But thanks for posting it anyhow
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Jnana » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:52 pm

A decent talk if one is into that sort of cerebral Western revisionism. Although, quoting Monier Monier-Williams as an example of how the West misunderstands Buddhism is a bit dated. At present, thousands of Westerners have thoroughly trained under the guidance of the best Asian teachers of each tradition, and many have also learned the language(s) of their tradition and work at translation. So things have changed considerably since the days of Monier-Williams.

Batchelor and Peacock's aversion towards the word "religion" is also kinda funny. If John Cleese would have appeared from the audience it could have made for a hilarious skit.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:50 pm

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Wesley1982
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Wesley1982 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:53 pm

Tell & Teach & Show the West how Buddhism is misunderstood and people will begin to formulate ideas and response to that.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:01 pm

By the way:

Murthugpa = Barhaspatya

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Challenge23 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:27 pm

IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:46 am


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Malcolm
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:27 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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jundo cohen
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby jundo cohen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:05 am

Last edited by jundo cohen on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:56 am, edited 10 times in total.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby shel » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:25 am


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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:41 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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jundo cohen
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby jundo cohen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:51 am

Last edited by jundo cohen on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:01 am

But, good sir, the facts of the matter in this case are amply documented. Whether or not one believes in re-birth I just don't think the claim that 'the Buddha didn't really teach re-birth' stacks up. Nor do I think that considering what it means amounts to blindly swallowing the dogma, either.

I think the most likely explanation for what we see here is that rebirth is actually deeply taboo in Western culture, both on scientific and religious grounds. The Christian church anathematized the teaching in the fourth century, and it obviously subversive to the current scientific worldview. So it is a kind of inconvenient truth for your trendy skeptics like Bachelor, better to try and explain it away.

Thanissaro Bikkhu has a very thorough post on this topic on .

I wouldn't have any problem with Bachelor saying 'here is a humanist secular philosophy based on Buddhism, that is especially suitable for Western audiences'. What I (and many others) have a major problem is him saying 'Look, this is what Buddhism really means once I have rescued it from superstitious beliefs such as rebirth'. Sorry, not buying that.
Last edited by Wayfarer on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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jundo cohen
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby jundo cohen » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:22 am

Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Wayfarer
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:08 am

I suppose ethical relativism is a hard thing to avoid in the current situation, but I detect a certain irony insofar as you are the one representing a lineage and wearing the vestements and accoutrements of the tradition, yet at the same time the one saying the Buddha 'makes mistakes'. I could never bring myself to say that, although I certainly can accept that there are plenty of mistakes made by Buddhists.

I am quite sympathetic to the notion of many lives. I often wonder who my ancient ancestors were, roaming around those frozen plains of Europe and wearing bison hides. And sometimes I think, they were simply another version of myself, with all the various cares and woes of men, all their problems and hopes and so on, as exist in all times and places. It makes it a lot easier to comprehend if you look at it in this way. We are plainly part of a process - where does that start and end, eh? I suspect it began, in a very real sense, long before this earth congealed. 'We are stardust'.

On the other hand, a famous Vedanta teacher, who died in 1960, always insisted 'there is no rebirth nor any hereafter. That is the simple truth. Find out who you are now'. I always took that to heart too. :smile:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi


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