Zhang Zhung and Garab Dorje

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Bon has a link with Buddha Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje.
Buddha Shakyamuni is called in Bon Sangwa Dupa and does belong to the Uninterrupted Lineage

All the collected informations stem from the book:
” Masters
of the
Zhang Zhung Nyengyud”

by: Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche


LINEAGE TREE

Gyerpung Nangzher Lodpo is important for another reason, too. He unified in himself all the lineages of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud. The lineage we have been discussing so far is known as the Uninterrupted Lineage,64 so called because all the Masters in this lineage followed one after the other with no chronological breaks.

However, there was also an Interrupted Lineage65 which had several branches. This lineage is known as 'interrupted' not because it was actually interrupted but because gaps appeared in the chronology of the Masters when the oral tradition was written down. This is how Pa Tengyal Zangpo, the compiler of the life-stories of the Masters explains this:
[ there does not exist a total chronology for the transmission of the above instructions. Well then, it might be objected, if there does not exist an original source for the transmission of these instructions, how then may this be distinguished as Bon? The original source of any transmission is exceedingly important! We answer that, with regard to this original source, it was transmitted from Horti Chenpo (who is a reliable source).

So, this transmission which has become divided and fragmented, still has a single root (which is the great Horti). For the reason (that it has become fragmented), it is called "the discontinuous transmission.,, 66
There were 3 branches of the Interrupted Lineage which came directly to the Drubthob-Mahasiddhas of Zhang Zhung from 3 different Dersheg-Buddhas of the Mind to Mind Lineage:

- ChimeyTsugphu,
- Yeshen Tsugphu 67
- Sangwa Dupa (Buddha Shakyamuni).

Sangwa Dupa.jpg (152.67 KiB) Viewed 1121 times

All 3 branches came together with the Uninterrupted Lineage in Gurub Nangzher Lodpo.



ZHANG ZHUNG AND GARAB DORJE

In the branch of the Interrupted Lineage stemming from Sangwa Dupa we find a very interesting figure, a Master known as Zhang Zhung Garab.


64 Tib. rgyud pa 'khrug med.
65 Tib. rgyud pa 'khrug can.
66 Reynolds, The Oral Tradition p. 68.
67 According to Y ongdzin Lopan Tenzin Namdak, although Yeshen Tsugphii does not appear among the line of the Nine Dershegs, he is a Buddha and has a direct lineage from Kuntu Zangpo.


Several leading scholars of Bon such as Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak, Samten G. Karmay and John M. Reynolds have suggested that this Master might be identical with Garab Dorje of the Nyingma Dzogchen lineage.68

It may be then, that both Tibetan lineages of Dzogchen have a single root not only in terms of their ultimate source, Bonku/ Dharmakaya, but also in terms of lineage. Both lineages came from Central Asia to Tibet via different countries, with the Nyingma lineage tracing its origin to Oddiyana (Tib. Urgyen)69 and the Bonpo lineage coming to Tibet from Zhang Zhung.

Oddiyana (Urgyen) and Zhang Zhung were neighboring countries and their borders were vague, not like in our modern times.

Several Bonpo Drubthob Mahasiddhas such as Drenpa Namkha, Tsewang Rigdzin, 70 Perna Thongdrol and others travelled back and forth between Zhang Zhung and Oddiyana; furthermore there is a Cycle of Indian Bon. 72

So Garab Dorje and Zhang Zhung Garab may indeed be the same person. This hypothesis is further supported by the fact that Bonpo and Nyingma Dzogchen do not differ in terms of their base, path, view, or result. All this, then, suggests a common source.

There is also later textual evidence which connects Garab Dorje with Bonpo Dzogchen. For example, in the text the Golden Spoon 73 rediscovered by the great terton 74 Yungdrung Lingpa 75 we read:

Vairotsana was sitting in the Tiger's Nest 76 in Bhutan. When he was practicing in the cave there one night, the cave became filled with light, the earth trembled and emitted sounds like a dragon roaring. Vairotsana looked in front of him and in a rainbow circle he saw Drenpa Namkha77 with his two sons 78 they appeared directly to him.


68 Oral communication from Yongdzin Lopan Tenzin Namdak; Karmay, The Little Luminous Boy, p. 7; Reynolds, The Oral Tradition, p. 59; John Myrdhin Reynolds, The Golden Letters, (Ithaca, New York: Snow Lion Publications, 1996), p. 227.
69 Tib. U rgyan.
70 Tib. Tshe dbang Rig 'dzin.
71 Tib. Pad rna mThong grol
72 Tib. rgya gar bon skor. For more information on Bon of India see Ermakov, Be and Bon,pp.23,205-206.
73 Tib. rDzogs chen gser thur ma lo rgyus spyi ching chen mo gab pa 'byed pa'i Ide mig zhes bya ba bzhugs,
74 Tib. gter ton - Spiritual Treasure Discoverer.
75 Tib.g.Yung drung gLing pa alias Tib. rDor rje gLing pa (1346-1405) was one of several tertons who found both Bonpo and Nyingma termas.
76 Tib. sPa gro stag tshang.
77 This is the second Drenpa Namkha, the prince of Zhang Zhung. See footnote 16.
78 I.e. Tsewang Rigdzin and Pema Thongdrol just mentioned above.


Drenpa Namkha was white in colour and decorated with the 6 bone ornaments. In his right hand he was holding up a Swastika which was spinning by his head. In his left hand he was holding a skull cup filled with blood. Under his arm he was holding a trident decorated with semiprecious and precious stones as well as with various silk drapes. He was in a dancing posture, and he was moving.

His son, Tsewang Rigdzin, was a darkish white colour. All his ornaments and decorations were penect and Vairotsana saw him clearly. He felt devotion to him at that time. This teaching was written in gold and kept inside a gold reliquary box. Drenpa Namkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments.

He gave him the 3 important points of teaching and also advice.

He said: 'Ho! Boy of awareness, spiritual son! Do not be deluded! Listen to me!,
I am Garab Dorje,
I am Drenpa Namkha
I am Lhagod Thoglebar, 79
I am Namkha Yungdrung, 80
I am also Drugse, Chemchog Kagying.81
I show a Bon sku form.

To whoever is devoted to me, I will appear as Sambhogakaya, Impure beings will see me as Nirmanakaya. I am the King of the Quintessence of the 3 Kayas. I am also the Free Life, Lachen Drenpa, the great lama of Namkha.
This is the essence of the Ultimate Vehicle of Bon. This is the drops of nectar from the golden spoon. Practise and then hide this as a treasure.' And then he gave the teachings to Vairotsana. Vairotsana hid it in the Tiger's Nest.82
Tapihritsa is also said to have been one of the emanations of Drenpa Namkha83 so this brings us back to Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Dzogchen.

79 Tib. Lha rgod thog las 'bar.
80 Tib. Nam mkha' g.Yung drung.
81 Tib, 'Brug gsas Chern pa, Che mchog mKha' gying.
82 Banpo Tengyur, vol. 295, p. 23. Kindly translated by Yongdzin Rinpoche, 07.08.09, Shenten Dargye Ling, France. 83 Oral communication from Yongdzin Rinpoche.

[kalden yungdrung]

Erata:

Gyerpung Nangzher Lodpo is important for another reason, too. He unified in himself all the lineages of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud. The lineage we have been discussing so far is known as the Uninterrupted Lineage,64 so called because all the Masters in this lineage followed one after the other with no chronological breaks.

Uninterrupted Lineage must be replaced with interrupted Lineage.

[mutsuk]

Bon has a link with Buddha Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje.

These links are later ones which Bonpo historians tried to compile in order to demonstrate the dependency of Nyingma teachings in general and Dzogchen in particular on Bon.

Buddha Shakyamuni is called in Bon Sangwa Dupa and does belong to the Uninterrupted Lineage

No, Sangwa Dupa is said to be the source of emanation of Shakyamuni, not to be Shakyamuni himself. In other words, Sangwa Düpa was asked by Chime Tsukphu to manifest as Shakyamuni in order to tame Indians who could not be subjugated by Bon but only by Dharma. This idea is late, there is of course no historical basis behind it. Therefore for late Bönpos, Shakyamuni is considered as an emanation of Sangwa Düpa, not as being Sangwa Düpa (Sangwa Düpa is a Deshek (Sugata), "living" in a pure realm).

As to the identification of Zhangzhung Garab and Garab Dorje, the only thing that can be identified between them is the compound "Garab". It's not enough to conflate both figures. There are reasons for that :

1. in the ZZNG you have not a single info on ZZ Garab except his name; it's not enough to prove identification; if he were Garab Dorje, don't you think there should be more?

2. the identification does not come up before at best the late 13th century or more certainly during the 14th, a time when Bönpos were busy reconstructing their history...

3. the identification of Drenpa Namkha and Garab Dorje in the quote of the Serthur appears only there; it comes from tertön Yungdrung Lingpa whom some identify as Dorje Lingpa who is probably a 14th century figure; there is no mention of this identification anywhere else (or there is but in sources based on this text). This is fantasy too.

You have to be careful when referring to Ermakov's works, he is no scholar at all and has no academic background to sustain his ideas... His references are provided by Yongdzin Rinpoche, not by his own research. I don't mean that Rinpoche's references are bad, this is not what I say, but this is no secret that they often have a clear agenda when it comes to influence of Bon on Nyingma or Nyingma on Bon.

[kalden yungdrung]

Bon has a link with Buddha Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje.

These links are later ones which Bonpo historians tried to compile in order to demonstrate the dependency of Nyingma teachings in general and Dzogchen in particular on Bon.

Buddha Shakyamuni is called in Bon Sangwa Dupa and does belong to the Uninterrupted Lineage

No, Sangwa Dupa is said to be the source of emanation of Shakyamuni, not to be Shakyamuni himself. In other words, Sangwa Düpa was asked by Chime Tsukphu to manifest as Shakyamuni in order to tame Indians who could not be subjugated by Bon but only by Dharma. This idea is late, there is of course no historical basis behind it. Therefore for late Bönpos, Shakyamuni is considered as an emanation of Sangwa Düpa, not as being Sangwa Düpa (Sangwa Düpa is a Deshek (Sugata), "living" in a pure realm).



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your efforts regarding your elucidations.

Yes that is true like i did read it somewhere else that Sangwa Dupa did manifest himself as an emanation and that was Shakyamuni Buddha. It has to be seen in that way

As to the identification of Zhangzhung Garab and Garab Dorje, the only thing that can be identified between them is the compound "Garab". It's not enough to conflate both figures. There are reasons for that :

1. in the ZZNG you have not a single info on ZZ Garab except his name; it's not enough to prove identification; if he were Garab Dorje, don't you think there should be more?
Is the revealing of a Terma not enough?

2. the identification does not come up before at best the late 13th century or more certainly during the 14th, a time when Bönpos were busy reconstructing their history...
In case of a Terma, it is possible that there was a delay regarding updates.

3. the identification of Drenpa Namkha and Garab Dorje in the quote of the Serthur appears only there; it comes from tertön Yungdrung Lingpa whom some identify as Dorje Lingpa who is probably a 14th century figure; there is no mention of this identification anywhere else (or there is but in sources based on this text). This is fantasy too.

Drenpa Namkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments.

He said: 'Ho! Boy of awareness, spiritual son! Do not be deluded! Listen to me!,
I am Garab Dorje,
I am Drenpa Namkha
I am Lhagod Thoglebar, 79
I am Namkha Yungdrung, 80
I am also Drugse, Chemchog Kagying.81
I show a Bon sku form.

Well if Drenpa Namka was telling this and Dorje Lingpa / Yungdrung Lingpa, was the one who did that discovery of the text, then it would be confident. If we cannot believe what the Tertons are telling, then in what should we have trust? Would it maybe also not be possible mentioned in the Kagyu Lineage?


You have to be careful when referring to Ermakov's works, he is no scholar at all and has no academic background to sustain his ideas... His references are provided by Yongdzin Rinpoche, not by his own research. I don't mean that Rinpoche's references are bad, this is not what I say, but this is no secret that they often have a clear agenda when it comes to influence of Bon on Nyingma or Nyingma on Bon.

Ermakovi did indeed compiled the book of the ZZNG Masters. His source of informations do come from our Lopon Lak. I cannot suppose that Ermakovi is writing this book in a different way than is explained by Lopon lak. So i must assume that the book is written in the provided elucidations done by Lopon lak. It could be that Ermakovi did misunderstood Lopon lak, but that sounds very strange to me. Just because Ermakovi has no academic background and is no scholar at all, he must do his utmost best to copy Lopon Lak' s words in the right way. Also Lopon lak would understand the level of understanding of his student......

Mutsog Marro
KY

[mutsuk]

Yes that is true like i did read it somewhere else that Sangwa Dupa did manifest himself as an emanation and that was Shakyamuni Buddha. It has to be seen in that way

Kvaerne has written a paper on this subject. It's not because Bon texts say that Shakyamuni was an emanation of Sangwa Dupa that it is true. Such an element did not see the light before the 14th century apparently.

Is the revealing of a Terma not enough?

Not from an historical point of view. THis is a matter of faith. However, there are no mentions of ZZ Garab in Bon literature except for the mention of his name (and only that) in Paton's history of the cycle.

In case of a Terma, it is possible that there was a delay regarding updates.

I doubt it. The case is not that of a terma here but that of the oral transmission. The identification is spurious and should be considered as a mistake. Even Paton does not make any reference to this identification. It certainly means he did not believe in it, for he would not have missed such an opportunity.

]Drenpa Namkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments. (...)

Well there is strictly not a single historical proof of that. All what one can say is that in a 14th century text, the terton says this. He's the only one to refer to it, you won't find it elsewhere, even in New Bon texts (or you may find this mention but in dependence of the Serthur). I'll ask JL for confirmation or contrary info.

Well if Drenpa Namka was telling this

In this 14th century text. There are no mention of this in earlier Bon works.

and Dorje Lingpa / Yungdrung Lingpa, was the one who did that discovery of the text, then it would be confident.

If you want to prove something historically, this is not sufficient. All you can say is that a Terton claims this and that in his termas. THis is not a historical proof. Bonpos say that Tonpa Shenrab lived at such and such a time because it is said so in such and such a work, like Zibji. However, Zibji is 14th century. If we were to find a, say, chinese or persian source dating before the 8th century saying that there was once a Buddha in a country called Tazik, then that would be interesting. Partisan claims are not historical truth though.

If we cannot believe what the Terons are telling, then in what should we trust?

The validity of the teachings, their efficaciousness, not necessarily their historical claims, in particular when it comes to termas.

Would it maybe also not be possible mentioned in the Kagyu Lineage?

What would not be possible ?

Ermakovi did indeed compiled the book of the ZZNG Masters. His source of informations do come from our Lopon Lak.

I did not say the contrary.

I cannot suppose that Ermakovi is writing this book in a different way than is explained by Lopon lak.

Sure not, he's not an academic researcher, he takes what Lopon says for granted, without direct knowledge of actual sources. I'd take teachings from Lopon for granted, sure, no problem. But I'd discuss historical claims, asking for independant (third party) proofs...

So i must assume that the book is written in the provided elucidations done by Lopon lak.

Rinpoche's agenda has been for years to show the dependency of Nyingma Dzogchen upon Bon Dzogchen. I personally don't mind. There are some truth there for some texts, but most of the identifications of individuals that were done since the 1970s by the bonpos in exile are spurious. At the beginning of the 1990s, Pema thongdröl was identified with Padmasambhava, just like NEw Bon teaching claim. Now he is considered as different. There were several changes also regarding the 3 Drenpa Namkhas, etc. All this depends on agendas, not historical facts.

It could be that Ermakovi did misunderstood Lopon lak, but that sounds very strange to me.

There are many things that sound strange in Ermakov's works, in particular the one you refer to, starting with the precision of the translation... This is way enough to disqualify his capacities.

Just because Ermakovi has no academic background and is no scholar at all, he must do his utmost best to copy Lopon Lak' s words in the right way.

Maybe, that's your point of view, there are others.

Also Lopon lak would understand the level of understanding of his student......

No, there are language barriers...

If I may dare, I'd have a request for your KY: could you write using black ink instead of blue, it's tiring the eyes... I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.

[Sönam]

If I may dare, I'd have a request for your KY: could you write using black ink instead of blue, it's tiring the eyes... I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.

I second that ... also when it's in the middle of the previous answer.

Sönam

[Stewart]

I third it...I appreciate your posts KY, but the blue font sometimes forces me to give up reading halfway through if it's a long post. Black please.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

If it would be better for you, i will write in black, no problem at all.
Communication should be perfect and not difficult.

Eyes can also be sensible in case of practice, i heard so.
For instance my eyes went bad from moment to moment. Now i need reading glasses. That is also the eye and its difficulties.


Mutsog Marro
KY

[Sönam]

[Stewart]

Thanks KY

[kalden yungdrung]

Yes that is true like i did read it somewhere else that Sangwa Dupa did manifest himself as an emanation and that was Shakyamuni Buddha. It has to be seen in that way

Kvaerne has written a paper on this subject. It's not because Bon texts say that Shakyamuni was an emanation of Sangwa Dupa that it is true. Such an element did not see the light before the 14th century apparently.

Is the revealing of a Terma not enough?

Not from an historical point of view. THis is a matter of faith. However, there are no mentions of ZZ Garab in Bon literature except for the mention of his name (and only that) in Paton's history of the cycle.

In case of a Terma, it is possible that there was a delay regarding updates.

I doubt it. The case is not that of a terma here but that of the oral transmission. The identification is spurious and should be considered as a mistake. Even Paton does not make any reference to this identification. It certainly means he did not believe in it, for he would not have missed such an opportunity.

]Drenpa Namkha touched Vairotsana's forehead, neck and chest with it and gave him the 4 empowerments. (...)

Well there is strictly not a single historical proof of that. All what one can say is that in a 14th century text, the terton says this. He's the only one to refer to it, you won't find it elsewhere, even in New Bon texts (or you may find this mention but in dependence of the Serthur). I'll ask JL for confirmation or contrary info.

Well if Drenpa Namka was telling this

In this 14th century text. There are no mention of this in earlier Bon works.

and Dorje Lingpa / Yungdrung Lingpa, was the one who did that discovery of the text, then it would be confident.

If you want to prove something historically, this is not sufficient. All you can say is that a Terton claims this and that in his termas. THis is not a historical proof. Bonpos say that Tonpa Shenrab lived at such and such a time because it is said so in such and such a work, like Zibji. However, Zibji is 14th century. If we were to find a, say, chinese or persian source dating before the 8th century saying that there was once a Buddha in a country called Tazik, then that would be interesting. Partisan claims are not historical truth though.
But there does exist also the oral traditions and here is nothing on script, that went for a very long time like that.Must everything be written on paper?

If we cannot believe what the Terons are telling, then in what should we trust?

The validity of the teachings, their efficaciousness, not necessarily their historical claims, in particular when it comes to termas.

Would it maybe also not be possible mentioned in the Kagyu Lineage?

What would not be possible ?

Thanks for your replies.
I do suggest here the knowing of the existence of Longde in ZZNG or ZZKY?

Ermakovi did indeed compiled the book of the ZZNG Masters. His source of informations do come from our Lopon Lak.

I did not say the contrary.

I cannot suppose that Ermakovi is writing this book in a different way than is explained by Lopon lak.

Sure not, he's not an academic researcher, he takes what Lopon says for granted, without direct knowledge of actual sources. I'd take teachings from Lopon for granted, sure, no problem. But I'd discuss historical claims, asking for independant (third party) proofs...
But there is also spoken of historical gaps which was covered by Terma's. That is a weak point always used against Bon. So also here are things not right, when i understood that Terma of Dorje Lingpa / Yungdrung Lingpa it seems to be questionable for some reasons.

So i must assume that the book is written in the provided elucidations done by Lopon lak.

Rinpoche's agenda has been for years to show the dependency of Nyingma Dzogchen upon Bon Dzogchen. I personally don't mind. There are some truth there for some texts, but most of the identifications of individuals that were done since the 1970s by the bonpos in exile are spurious. At the beginning of the 1990s, Pema thongdröl was identified with Padmasambhava, just like NEw Bon teaching claim. Now he is considered as different. There were several changes also regarding the 3 Drenpa Namkhas, etc. All this depends on agendas, not historical facts.

It could be that Ermakovi did misunderstood Lopon lak, but that sounds very strange to me.

There are many things that sound strange in Ermakov's works, in particular the one you refer to, starting with the precision of the translation... This is way enough to disqualify his capacities.

Just because Ermakovi has no academic background and is no scholar at all, he must do his utmost best to copy Lopon Lak' s words in the right way.

Maybe, that's your point of view, there are others.
That was my first opinion that all was in accordance with Lopon Lak's explanations

Also Lopon lak would understand the level of understanding of his student......

No, there are language barriers...
Well i meant here the level of understanding of his student, in the sense of practice results. Also does he has some experience with humans this old Master.
No i am not convinced about language barriers. One time during tri, the translator made a mistake in Dutch translation. The old Rinpoche 84 years old, did not understood at all Dutch but made a correction from his throne to the translator. So the translator changed his speech. Found it always very remarkable.

Mutsog marro
KY
If I may dare, I'd have a request for your KY: could you write using black ink instead of blue, it's tiring the eyes... I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.

[Sönam]

sorry to come back ... but now you have to learn to deal with [/quote][quote]


Sönam

[kalden yungdrung]

sorry to come back ... but now you have to learn to deal with

Sönam

Tashi delek,

Yes, i saw the first result, which is not that which i did expect. Maybe i will write in dark blue?

Mutsog marro
KY

[username]

Thank you Kalden Yungdrung for showing Bon pay homage to all Buddhas including Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje despite what some mistaken beings propagate. ChNNR said last week in detail, sometimes those who think they are scholars will never get rigpa as it can be more difficult for them and easier for ordinary honest people though this is not an absolute rule and there are many exceptions in both camps. Of course there are great scholars like LTNR and himself who are realized masters and we have seen many times in person lecture including in universities to professors. So regarding your OP, the great scholar masters like TNR & ChNNR's views are not easily dismissed for us and also many non-practicing professors but are serious contenders. Also there are other few academically trained scholars authorized by such rare great masters to teach Dzogchen too and those are the true scholars. But your realizations above are true as is the homage paid to Padmasambhava by New Bon receiving terma from him in Kham and elsewhere to this very day. Thanks again.

[mutsuk]

despite what some mistaken beings propagate.

Username, your daily hatred with whomever does not think like you is so predictable. You obviously have no idea of what lies behind some affirmations... It's no surprise though...

So regarding your OP, the great scholar masters like TNR & ChNNR's views are not easily dismissed for us

My intention was not to dismiss any view, just to forward infos. You see, username, when I read what you write in this forum, there are two feelings that come up are : 1) you want everybody to think like you, which is a tragic sign of immaturity, and 2) you display such a hate throughout what you write that it... well.. unfortunately says a lot...

Your hatred towards JLA is nothing new, hey , but who cares really ? If you don't want to discuss things with others, why are you here? JLA has been authorized to teach by Yongdzin Rinpoche, several times, or maybe your hate is just direct to me ? Cuz i'm a woman ? Is that so? Coming from someone who does not do anything but spread hate here and hides behind his username....

the homage paid to Padmasambhava by New Bon receiving terma from him in Kham and elsewhere to this very day.

What New Bon texts have you read ?

[username]

1- I was not thinking of anyone Bon so your assumption is wrong.
2- I never thought of JLA once when writing that so you are wrong again. His criticisms of ChNNR never came to my mind.
3- The point is some don't like New Bon. They are constantly complaining about being repressed by such people to the Tibetan government in exile.

So everything you are and wrote is just your usual mental protections. Charming

[mutsuk]

1- I was not thinking of anyone Bon so your assumption is wrong.

Well you mentioned "some mistaken beings". These are people, right ? So you were indeed thinking of someone.

2- I never thought of JLA once when writing that so you are wrong again.

You won't have anyone believe you about this.

His criticisms of ChNNR never came to my mind.

It's not because he does not agree with "presence" that he is critical against Norbu Rinpoche. After your attacks against JL, I bet the only person you had in mind was JL. Again, don't hide behind your username and have some courage.

3- The point is you don't like New Bon.

You don't know what I don't like. I don't like pretentious individuals who barked at all those who do not think like them. But you are wrong again (and as usual in terms of Bon), my main practice is a New Bon cycle, so you really don't know what you are talking about.

They are constantly complaining about being repressed by people like you

Who are the people like me ? You probably know that Norbu Rinpoche and Lopon Rinpoche, not to mention HH the Abbot, have rather radical views regarding New Bon. This clearly demonstrates again that you don't know what you're talking about. And you think all New Bon is connected to Padmasambhava? You really don't know anything about New Bon, that's clear.

Again, I ask you: what New Bon cycles have you read?

who claim to be Bon to the Tibetan government in exile.

Have some courage, make clear statements. Do you mean the people from Menri and Triten ?

So everything you are

Everything I am is beyond your reach. You have no idea.

and write is just your usual mental protections.

Well, my mental protections ? You mean projections? Or protect from what ? Truth ? You don't like truth it's clear...

Charming

Sure, you're a gentleman, everybody can witness that here.

[mutsuk]

Sorry KY, I hadn't seen that you had answered in italics. You should try using the quote button.That would be easier for locating your answers.

But there does exist also the oral traditions and here is nothing on script, that went for a very long time like that.Must everything be written on paper?

No everything must not be written on paper, and in terms of the ZZNG not everything is on paper. However, we don't see any reference to ZZNG before the late 11th century from historical figures. What this means is that the teachings certainly existed before that time but how long before it's difficult to say, especially when it's impossible to date the masters of the lineage before Orgom Kundul. But sure, Orgom Kundul had masters and these are historical figures but we have no way of calculating their dates. So the masters of these masters are lost in a historical haze which is impossible to evaluate properly in terms of dates.

Thanks for your replies.
I do suggest here the knowing of the existence of Longde in ZZNG or ZZKY?

There are no mentions of the expressions "Semdé", "Longdé" or "Mengakdé" in ZZNG. What is ZZKY?

But there is also spoken of historical gaps which was covered by Terma's. That is a weak point always used against Bon. So also here are things not right, when i understood that Terma of Dorje Lingpa / Yungdrung Lingpa it seems to be questionable for some reasons.

The identification of Yungdrung Lingpa with Dorje Lingpa is questionable. Their dates are different in Bon and in the Nyingma schools. But it's maybe a problem of the Bon chronology which tends to give earlier dates. I read through JL's translations and catalogues of Dorje Lingpa's Dzogchen works but I haven't seen any reference to the Serthur there. What JL wrote in a note is an information from Yongdzin Rinpoche saying that there used to be a set of three Bon Tantras associated with the Three Bodies which Dorje Lingpa had Bon-ized (signing it Yungdrung Lingpa) from one of his own Terma (this one is still available whereas the 3 Bon Tantras are lost; Lopon had them in hand before the exile but he had no possibility to copy them; they may still be found near Ensakha if the communists have not destroyed them. But it's true that the Yungdrung Lingpa/Dorje Lingpa is complex since in his autobiography Dorje Lingpa says he reveals Bon termas under the name of Yungdrung Lingpa. Maybe one should correct the Bon chronology that would solve some things, but that would create a mess with other dates from Bon contemporaries of Yungdrung Linga (following the Bon dates...). It's not an easy subject.

That was my first opinion that all was in accordance with Lopon Lak's explanations

Oh, that's clear.

No i am not convinced about language barriers.

Then if you listen to the Shenten tapes and DVDs, you'll see countless occasions where the translators are wrong and nothing is said about this. In fact, the renderings in French are disastrous. Lopon Rinpoche should be teaching in Tibetan and be translated into French or into English (directly from Tibetan), that would help avoid so many misconceptions that are rampaging the oral translations. But I don't want to throw the stone at these translators: oral translation is an art in itself and demands capacities which are not so frequent. I guess they do their best, in particular the younger lady who translates Rinpoche now.

Thanks for having turned to black ink that helps a lot!

[username]

As I did not have you or JLA in mind when writing, most of your post above is continuing your mistaken presumptions. As to the other area, you don't know what I am taking about since the complaints being received in Dharamsala regularly in confidence are from certain other quarters in Kham. Thirdly regardless of doctrinal disagreements all Tibetan sub schools have equal rights. Fourthly no one thinks you or JLA, whom you are quoting from telephone conversations in this forum, or any westerner are the source of the little problem outside Tibet. No one cares about what you guys say so do not worry. Finally since I had not you or JLA in mind in the post you attacked, the fact remains your accusation was merely your mistaken mental projection. However I will continue to read his interviews and papers and your posts and future papers too with interest. Say hello to JLA from me. Have a good day my friend

[mutsuk]

Say hello to JLA from me.

I sure will! What name should I forward in the message ?