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Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Goofaholix
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:43 pm


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legolas
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby legolas » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:53 am

Hi, D.F

I actually had a bet with myself that the sutta with Bahiya would be introduced. This sutta does not mention non-conceptuality. I can look at something and understand through reasoned thought processes that one of the events taking place is "just seeing", there is no need for mental gymnastics to induce some sort of trance state. If I choose to be aware of "just seeing" I can begin to investigate that process according to my inclination e.g notself, impermanent, causally arisen etc.

The other suttas mentioned have no content in them that justifies a non-conceptual approach. I do not deny that the nibbana experience is beyond conceptual understanding, however you cannot take the "result" as the path - this is a course taken by our Buddhist brothers in the other tradition. One question that revolves around semantics- would you relate the word concept with perception? As I understand it, a perception cannot take place in isolation and has to involve at least a modicum of conceptual thought.

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ground
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:41 am

I understand that any meaning added to mere sense data is a concept. So mental labelling is not the characteristic of "concept" but "added meaning" is which may be sort of subliminal, i.e. in a non-grasped state. Mental labelling actually is already one step further.
Thusly understood e.g. the Satipatthana Sutta teaches a conceptual familiarization with insight(s) as its goal(s).

Kind regards

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Goofaholix
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:02 am


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ground
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:56 am

Goofaholix

our understanding of "concepts" or "conceptual" is significantly different. I guess a difference of understanding is involved among all people discussing such topics like that of this thread. That is why it is difficult to discuss such topics.

The interest in this topic seems to be based on confusing "attachment to concepts" and "concepts". Since everbody is interested in "non-attachment" there arises the idea that the flaw is inherent in "concepts", however it is just "attachment to concepts" that is the flaw.
And since "non-attachment" is highly esteemed there arises the bias to label "non-conceptual" meditation methods that actually are still conceptual. But there is no value inherent in non-conceptuality.
I consider the process the Satipatthana Sutta describes to be conceptual because what you label "experience" are concepts from my perspective. However as to the insight this conceptual process leads to ... I do not dare to label it either "conceptual" or "non-conceptual".

Kind regards

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:16 am


PeterB
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby PeterB » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:20 am

There is more than one " noting " technique...One involves naming...so that on hearing a car back fire outside one says " hearing hearing " ( for example ) and then returns to the object.
Another involves focusing awareness on a particular feeling or sensation without naming. And then moving the focus to another feeling or sensation.

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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:25 am


PeterB
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby PeterB » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:55 am

I am afraid that we ( and I include myself here ) have got into the habit of being a bit imprecise in our use of terms Norman...
I would be interested in Ben's take as he has just got back from a Vipassana intensive.

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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby dhamma follower » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:45 pm


Nyana
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:27 pm


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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:10 pm

As I understand the Bahiya sutta, the Buddha is not instructing to stop thinking, but to be aware of the "cognized in the cognized." You have to read between the lines to see the difference between what he is saying is awakening practice, and our way of being which is unawake. If the correct thing is the seen in the seen, and the cognized in the cognized - then what we normally do, must be to unawaredly "mix" the cognized into the seen, the cognized into the heard, the cognized into the sensed, and even cognize the cognized. I don't think our usual problem is that there is the seen in the heard, the heard in the sensed, and so on - what is called "synesthesia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Sacha G
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Sacha G » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Hi Kirk5a
As I understand the instruction to Bahiya, "in the seen there will be only the seen", means there is not somebody who sees, but only "seeing". That's why the Buddha concludes by saying "you are neither here, nor there, nor between the two".
:thinking:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com

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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:10 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:35 pm


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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:37 pm


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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:41 pm


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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:51 pm


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Goofaholix
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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:53 pm


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Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?

Postby ground » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:05 pm



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