Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
- underthetree
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
- Location: UK
Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
This is a question that has been on my mind for a very long time: are there any authentic lineages today that have one of the original Mahasiddhas as their originator, but that have not come down through Tibetan channels?
The question arises from another question: how might one practice in the original manner of the Mahasiddhas? My - very loose - lineage affilication is with Drikung Kagyu and so the lineage is from Tilopa. But... I've never felt completely at one with the Tibetan context. I don't find I have any significant connection to Padmasambhava, for instance, and so I always feel a little bit fraudulent saying the Seven Line Prayer - meanwhile I understand that this prayer is of fundamental importance to Tibetan Vajrayana and so from a practice point of view it's a dilemma for me. Who would an Indian follower of, say, Tilopa have supplicated as the Guru? Vajradhara, I suppose, but exactly how?
If someone could point me in the direction of some Indian Vajrayana resources from the early Middle Ages I'd be truly grateful.
I'm posting this in the general Mahayana forum - if a moderator thinks it belongs somewhere else, please move accordingly.
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
The question arises from another question: how might one practice in the original manner of the Mahasiddhas? My - very loose - lineage affilication is with Drikung Kagyu and so the lineage is from Tilopa. But... I've never felt completely at one with the Tibetan context. I don't find I have any significant connection to Padmasambhava, for instance, and so I always feel a little bit fraudulent saying the Seven Line Prayer - meanwhile I understand that this prayer is of fundamental importance to Tibetan Vajrayana and so from a practice point of view it's a dilemma for me. Who would an Indian follower of, say, Tilopa have supplicated as the Guru? Vajradhara, I suppose, but exactly how?
If someone could point me in the direction of some Indian Vajrayana resources from the early Middle Ages I'd be truly grateful.
I'm posting this in the general Mahayana forum - if a moderator thinks it belongs somewhere else, please move accordingly.
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
First off, Padmasambhava was not Tibetan.......perhaps I'm stating the obvious.
Secondly, look to Nepal for that which you seek, young padawan!
Seriously, there are extant Vajrayana lineages in Nepal, going back to the Mahasiddhas....Chakrasamvara, Vajrayogini, they're all there. Ive seen a group of wandering sadhakas, chanting in Sanskrit, with harmoniums, two-headed drums, etc. Their practice is quite beautiful.
Secondly, look to Nepal for that which you seek, young padawan!
Seriously, there are extant Vajrayana lineages in Nepal, going back to the Mahasiddhas....Chakrasamvara, Vajrayogini, they're all there. Ive seen a group of wandering sadhakas, chanting in Sanskrit, with harmoniums, two-headed drums, etc. Their practice is quite beautiful.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- underthetree
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
First off, Padmasambhava was not Tibetan.......perhaps I'm stating the obvious.
Absolutely. It's just that Padmasambhava has come to represent Tibetan Buddhism while - as far as I know - having no (remembered) impact on the Indian scene. If that isn't true then obviously a big part of my question is answered...
I've never used an emoticon before in my life, but Of course: Nepal. And I think it's true that there are still Buddhist Naths there as well.Secondly, look to Nepal for that which you seek, young padawan!
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Are these Newar lineages?conebeckham wrote:Seriously, there are extant Vajrayana lineages in Nepal, going back to the Mahasiddhas....Chakrasamvara, Vajrayogini, they're all there. Ive seen a group of wandering sadhakas, chanting in Sanskrit, with harmoniums, two-headed drums, etc. Their practice is quite beautiful.
Best wishes
Lars
- underthetree
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
That was going to be my next question.Are these Newar lineages?
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
I believe they were Newari, yes...but I cannot confirm that. I saw them near Pharping, years ago (before it was so developed)--and was told by someone that they were Vajrayana Buddhists practicing a Vajrayogini puja....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Say what?
That's just wrong.
There are scads of practices where one visualizes particular gurus-Padmasambhava, Milarepa, the 2nd, 8th, 16th Karmapa and many others...and these practices are most definitely confined to monasteries.
That's just wrong.
There are scads of practices where one visualizes particular gurus-Padmasambhava, Milarepa, the 2nd, 8th, 16th Karmapa and many others...and these practices are most definitely confined to monasteries.
Last edited by conebeckham on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Was it this place?conebeckham wrote:I believe they were Newari, yes...but I cannot confirm that. I saw them near Pharping, years ago (before it was so developed)--and was told by someone that they were Vajrayana Buddhists practicing a Vajrayogini puja....
They are Newari and as the story goes Naropa taught the family many centuries ago a tantra which they still maintain to this day.
If you didn't know it was Buddhist, you would think it was Hindu. Their manner of offering with rice is apparently quite similar to how some Hindus do it.
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Shingon in Japan and now in Taiwan traces their lineage back to India through China. You have figures like Amoghavajra, Huiguo and Kukai as representative attained yogis. However, it is far removed from the original Indian cultural sphere.underthetree wrote:This is a question that has been on my mind for a very long time: are there any authentic lineages today that have one of the original Mahasiddhas as their originator, but that have not come down through Tibetan channels?
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
I saw those practitioners at that place, Huseng... Yes indeed! But I saw a separate group, or so it seemed to me, at a location further up the hill, nearer the cave with the self-arising Tara....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
There is also the Padmasambhava caves nearby. One with his purported hand-print and the other down the road a bit.conebeckham wrote:I saw those practitioners at that place, Huseng... Yes indeed! But I saw a separate group, or so it seemed to me, at a location further up the hill, nearer the cave with the self-arising Tara....
There is an ancient Vajrayogini shrine inside the building displayed in the above photo. It is normally locked up, but if you ask them they can open it for you.
- underthetree
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:44 pm
- Location: UK
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
As a Vajrayogini practitioner I have to make the pilgrimage to Nepal at some point.
It does seem to me that Nepal is ground zero for syncretic religion. Naths, Shaivites, Vajrayana, Mahayana, all cross-pollinating. Are any of these Newari sadhanas in print, or available in English on the web? It would be intriguing to compare them to the Tibetan ones.
It does seem to me that Nepal is ground zero for syncretic religion. Naths, Shaivites, Vajrayana, Mahayana, all cross-pollinating. Are any of these Newari sadhanas in print, or available in English on the web? It would be intriguing to compare them to the Tibetan ones.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Yep. I've been to all those places--it's an amazing area. The inside of that shrine is a "must-see" for Vajrayogini practitioners, for sure!Huseng wrote:There is also the Padmasambhava caves nearby. One with his purported hand-print and the other down the road a bit.conebeckham wrote:I saw those practitioners at that place, Huseng... Yes indeed! But I saw a separate group, or so it seemed to me, at a location further up the hill, nearer the cave with the self-arising Tara....
There is an ancient Vajrayogini shrine inside the building displayed in the above photo. It is normally locked up, but if you ask them they can open it for you.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
I thought Shingon maintained the transmission as Kukai taught it and that his transmission was essentially the same as the Chinese had received from India?Huseng wrote:Shingon in Japan and now in Taiwan traces their lineage back to India through China. You have figures like Amoghavajra, Huiguo and Kukai as representative attained yogis. However, it is far removed from the original Indian cultural sphere.underthetree wrote:This is a question that has been on my mind for a very long time: are there any authentic lineages today that have one of the original Mahasiddhas as their originator, but that have not come down through Tibetan channels?
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Is this the main Vajrayogini shrine in the valleys outside of Kathmandhu?Huseng wrote:There is also the Padmasambhava caves nearby. One with his purported hand-print and the other down the road a bit.conebeckham wrote:I saw those practitioners at that place, Huseng... Yes indeed! But I saw a separate group, or so it seemed to me, at a location further up the hill, nearer the cave with the self-arising Tara....
There is an ancient Vajrayogini shrine inside the building displayed in the above photo. It is normally locked up, but if you ask them they can open it for you.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Huseng wrote:Shingon in Japan and now in Taiwan traces their lineage back to India through China. You have figures like Amoghavajra, Huiguo and Kukai as representative attained yogis. However, it is far removed from the original Indian cultural sphere.underthetree wrote:This is a question that has been on my mind for a very long time: are there any authentic lineages today that have one of the original Mahasiddhas as their originator, but that have not come down through Tibetan channels?
I wonder if Shugendo might also be relevant to the discussion: ascetic yogis largely outside the mainstream
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugend%C5%8D" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
My friend Yeshe Dorje has spent 40 some years in Nepal, mostly in retreat. He is currently the caretaker at Chatral Rinpoche's retreat center at Godawari. Last visit to the U.S., he mentioned that there are some really good Newari Vajrayana practitioners in Nepal. That's saying something coming from him. He does not offer Dharma praise easily. So, if you're looking for non-Tibetan Buddhist tantric lineages, definitely consider a long stay in Nepal.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
Modifications can be expected.kirtu wrote: I thought Shingon maintained the transmission as Kukai taught it and that his transmission was essentially the same as the Chinese had received from India?
Kirt
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
I think so. It is quite ancient and dates back to Naropa as I was told.kirtu wrote: Is this the main Vajrayogini shrine in the valleys outside of Kathmandhu?
Kirt
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5718
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Non-Tibetan Mahasiddha lineages?
conebeckham wrote:Say what?
That's just wrong.
There are scads of practices where one visualizes particular gurus-Padmasambhava, Milarepa, the 2nd, 8th, 16th Karmapa and many others...and these practices are most definitely confined to monasteries.
Ugh. Should have been "these practices are most definitely NOTconfined to monasteries.
Dang iPhone. Shouldn't post at the gym.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")